Friday 11 November 1664

Up, and with Sir J. Minnes and Sir W. Batten to the Council Chamber at White Hall, to the Committee of the Lords for the Navy, where we were made to wait an houre or two before called in. In that time looking upon some books of heraldry of Sir Edward Walker’s making, which are very fine, there I observed the Duke of Monmouth’s armes are neatly done, and his title, “The most noble and high-born Prince, James Scott, Duke of Monmouth, &c.;” nor could Sir J. Minnes, nor any body there, tell whence he should take the name of Scott? And then I found my Lord Sandwich, his title under his armes is, “The most noble and mighty Lord, Edward, Earl of Sandwich, &c.”

Sir Edward Walker afterwards coming in, in discourse did say that there was none of the families of princes in Christendom that do derive themselves so high as Julius Caesar, nor so far by 1000 years, that can directly prove their rise; only some in Germany do derive themselves from the patrician familys of Rome, but that uncertainly; and, among other things, did much inveigh against the writing of romances, that 500 years hence being wrote of matters in general, true as the romance of Cleopatra, the world will not know which is the true and which the false.

Here was a gentleman attending here that told us he saw the other day (and did bring the draught of it to Sir Francis Prigeon) of a monster born of an hostler’s wife at Salisbury, two women children perfectly made, joyned at the lower part of their bellies, and every part perfect as two bodies, and only one payre of legs coming forth on one side from the middle where they were joined. It was alive 24 hours, and cried and did as all hopefull children do; but, being showed too much to people, was killed.

By and by we were called in, where a great many lords: Annesly in the chair. But, Lord! to see what work they will make us, and what trouble we shall have to inform men in a business they are to begin to know, when the greatest of our hurry is, is a thing to be lamented; and I fear the consequence will be bad to us.

Thence I by coach to the ’Change, and thence home to dinner, my head akeing mightily with much business.

Our little girl better than she was yesterday.

After dinner out again by coach to my Lord Chancellor’s, but could not speak with him, then up and down to seek Sir Ph. Warwicke, Sir G. Carteret, and my Lord Berkely, but failed in all, and so home and there late at business.

Among other things Mr. Turner making his complaint to me how my clerks do all the worke and get all the profit, and he hath no comfort, nor cannot subsist, I did make him apprehend how he is beholding to me more than to any body for my suffering him to act as Pourveyour of petty provisions, and told him so largely my little value of any body’s favour, that I believe he will make no complaints again a good while. So home to supper and to bed, after prayers, and having my boy and Mercer give me some, each of them some, musique.

43 Annotations

First Reading

Terry F  •  Link

In lieu of Dirk (who is in good health, thanks), an entry from the Carte Calendar

Thomas Povey to Sandwich
Written from: Lincoln's Inn Fields

Date: 11 November 1664

Shelfmark: MS. Carte 75, fol(s). 253-254
Document type: Holograph

Apprises his Lordship of the steps taken at Court towards examining and stating the Accounts of the settlement of Tangier, both whilst under the government of Lord Peterborough; and subsequently under the Commissioners. Reports what has come to his knowledge of Lord Sandwich's special interests and claims in the matter, and asks for further instructions.
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/s…

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Poor kid. Far better to be out of such a world.

Ah, Sam. Couldn't you spare one kind thought for your poor niece?

Paul Chapin  •  Link

"nor could Sir J. Minnes, nor any body there, tell whence he should take the name of Scott?"
Good question, Sam. It was his wife's family name, which is the "whence", but surely it was even less common then than now for a man to take his wife's surname on marriage. I guess he figured it was better than Crofts, a name he took from Lord Crofts, who raised him after his mother's death (Lucy Walters), since Charles would not allow him to use the name Stuart. The Scotts were at that time one of the wealthiest families in Scotland.

Paul Chapin  •  Link

"Lord! to see what work they will make us, and what trouble we shall have to inform men in a business they are to begin to know, when the greatest of our hurry is, is a thing to be lamented"

If these Lords have a voice in the decision-making, it would have been a good idea to keep them in the loop from the outset.

Miss Ann  •  Link

Well, well, well. I've just finished reading about a little girl in India who has just had surgery to remove the limbs, etc. from a twin that failed to develop. The dear little thing was born with 4 arms and 4 legs and several duplicates of certain organs, the surgery has taken about 30 plus hours but she is, thankfully, progressing well. Some things never change no matter how much medical science progresses. Fascinating though, especially being able to look at good x-rays. This little girl has a much better chance that the one Sam has been discussing, notwithstanding that she lives in rural India.

cgs  •  Link

so there be much palming of hands, so that there be how the 'clarkes' get their wages [tips].
"...Among other things Mr. Turner making his complaint to me how my clerks do all the worke and get all the profit, and he hath no comfort, nor cannot subsist, I did make him apprehend how he is beholding to me more than to any body for my suffering him to act as Pourveyour of petty provisions, and told him so largely my little value of any body’s favour, that I believe he will make no complaints again a good while...."

Terry F  •  Link

"I did make him apprehend how he is beholding to me more than to any body for my suffering him to act as Pourveyour of petty provisions, and told him so largely my little value of any body’s favour, that I believe he will make no complaints again a good while….”

I reminded him that it is I and I alone who lets my clerks buy from him what little bits they do, which deserves expressions of gratitude, not whining.

Jesse  •  Link

"whence he should take the name of Scott?"

Well, with his wife being "heiress of Francis, second Earl of Buccleuch" [per his link] my guess would be that the intention was to continue his wife's family name. Not being a 'true' Croft there probably wasn't much pull on that end. I've heard that in some asian cultures it's not unusual for the husband to assume his spouse's family name when she has no brothers and his family name has been sufficiently propagated by an older brother.

Of course if my guess is true than the question is why were Pepys et. al. at such a loss?

jeannine  •  Link

Duke of Monmouth's name -Scott.

One thing that Charles II was exceptional at was marrying off his bastard children early and into money. He was generally devoted to them all (in varying degrees, as Monmouth was clearly among his favorites). Where money was such an issue for him it was always important for him to try to find the best mix of money/rank that he could get and move them over onto someone else's 'balance sheet' and off of his. In the case of Monmouth, the use of the name "Scott" came along with the marriage, which was also to his benefit. [Spoiler] As with many of the Stuart marriages, this one will be miserable for Monmouth's wife, who he will basically 'disown' in favor of a later mistress. Sort of goes with the territory of the times.

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"joined at the lower part of their bellies"
No word about how they were delivered!my guess is that most likely they were orphans at this point.

language hat  •  Link

"It was alive 24 hours, and cried and did as all hopefull children do; but, being showed too much to people, was killed."

What a sad story, and what a great sentence.

Gus Spier  •  Link

Does anyone have any insight into what "petty" provisions are? As opposed other kinds of provisions?

r,

Gus

Terry F  •  Link

"Does anyone have any insight into what “petty” provisions are? As opposed other kinds of provisions?"

I with cgs failed to tell Mr. Turner's story straight. As I now understand it, Mr. Turner, who clerks for the Navy Comptroller, Sir John Mennes, is in the same racket as Mr. Pepys (and has been at it longer). Two years ago he lodged the same complaint with Pepys.
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
At this point my theory is: while Pepys's clerks draft contracts for big stuff -- masts and such -- Mr. Turner is left with the likes of oarlocks and lard.

Australian Susan  •  Link

Delivery of the sad little baby

It may have been a breech presentation and as there was only one set of lower limbs could have been delivered OK, but sadly, yes, it was probably fatal for the mother. One in three died in childbirth at this time. If it had survived, the child[ren] would probably have had to endure a lifetime of being regarded as a freak and exhibited. The Indian child referred to by Miss Ann was worshipped as a god in her home village.

Australian Susan  •  Link

For those who are interested (and isn't it odd how this has come up just when there is a mention of conjoined twins in the Diary!), here is a link to a news story about this little girl
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_…

Pedro  •  Link

“a lifetime of being regarded as a freak and exhibited.”

From Rex Gordon’s background to Bartholomew Fair

This was the fair which Jonson celebrated in his play of the same name… Displayed “at the sign of the Shoe and Slap” was “THE WONDER OF NATURE, a girl about sixteen years of age, born in Cheshire, and not above eighteen inches long … Reads very well, whistles, and all very pleasant to hear.” Close by was exhibited “a Man with one Head and two distinct Bodies,” as well as a “Giant Man” and “Little Fairy Woman” performing among other freak shows and theatrical booths.

JWB  •  Link

"...did much inveigh against the writing of romances...the world will not know which is the true and which the false..."

Norman Mailer, author of the non-fictional novel or "History as a Novel, the Novel as History" died yesterday. This bending reader hopes the notion is buried with him.

language hat  •  Link

As long as you're dragging off-topic material in, I'm going to have to call you on it. 1) Mailer was a superb writer, and I'll take Armies of the Night and The Executioner's Song over whatever competition you care to put in the balance. 2) Of course the "notion" wasn't "buried with him"; it was around before him and it is still flourishing. If you think there's some magic line between "fiction" and "nonfiction," there's a place for you in library cataloguing but perhaps not in serious discussion of literature.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

A very fine line indeed...I can't say I love every example of novelized history but certainly Vidal and others have done worthy work in the field.

I suppose in a sense, Sam's work is history as 'novelish' diary. I'd say he clearly enjoys dramatizing scenes and will be expanding as he proceeds and I can't help feeling we are the luckier for it.

JWB  •  Link

Well, if one must agree with another before entering into serious discussion, there will be no serious discussion.

Pedro  •  Link

"there’s a place for you in library cataloguing but perhaps not in serious discussion of literature."

Gosh, you've got me worried about annotating.

As an person who did not have any particular interest in history before Phil started Sam's Diary, and as someone who has heard of Caesar and Cleopatra, but has no clue as to Norman Mailer, should I stick to on-topic non-serious annotations?

Australian Susan  •  Link

As a librarian, does this mean I am deemed incapable of "serious discussion of literature" ??

BTW, ABC here in Australia has a new sit-com about a public library - watch it if it gets sold to the US or the UK - wincingly accurate. With no public libraries, Sam did not have to face the problems of power-crazed library assistants - wonder if he ever got into trouble with his habit of browse reading the books in bookshops or the stalls in Paul's Churchyard?

language hat  •  Link

"As a librarian, does this mean I am deemed incapable of “serious discussion of literature” ??"

Now, now, I respect librarians deeply (they're among the few organized groups standing up for freedom in America today, for one thing). I wasn't talking about librarians, simply saying that the belief in a clear line between fiction and nonfiction would better suit one for making Dewey Decimal decisions than discussing literature. Sorry if that wasn't clear. (I've worked in libraries myself.)

"Well, if one must agree with another before entering into serious discussion, there will be no serious discussion."

I have no idea what you're talking about. I was disagreeing with you, and you're free to disagree with me.

cgs  •  Link

From nonsense to fiction to reality to history, is the blend.
Fiction in my uneducated way, is unproven thought, which turns many times into reality.
Man can not think of anything that at some time has abasis in truth.
Take flight for example [e.g] by a man with feathers, 5000 years ago, now man [woman actually ] has risen up on her wings and soared as an eagle across the straights of Dover.
another, man now can see earth from heaven [200+ miles away].
'Twas the power of type that has allowed man of differing thoughts to be in commune with one of similar ideas now expanded by the inter-net.
So Pedro, every one sees the problem thru differing filters of experience.
Just a 'tort' from a plow boy. So please gives us your ideas, we may never agree, but it will evoke another take on the subject.
I've never been blessed by parchment, none the less I will have a say, hoping never to hurt a reader.

Terry F  •  Link

"to bed, after prayers"

Methinks this the first time SP has ended a non-"Lord's Day" thusly.

pepf  •  Link

LH: "1) Mailer was a superb writer, and I’ll take Armies of the Night and The Executioner’s Song over whatever competition you care to put in the balance."

The competition being 22.000.000+ (minus the 2 cited) books at the LoC alone, to be read in a single lifetime of some 30.000 Julian days give or take 10.000, your "whatever" implies really hyperbolic speed reading (30 bph) if you are able to judge their relative merits.

language hat  •  Link

You went back four years to make that silly comment? You must be bored.

Second Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"But, Lord! to see what work they will make us, and what trouble we shall have to inform men in a business they are to begin to know, when the greatest of our hurry is, is a thing to be lamented; and I fear the consequence will be bad to us."

Today's discussion was mainly about victualling. The committee now required the Board to report in person and in writing three times a week: Pepys to Coventry, 12 November (Further Corr., pp. 28-9) (Per L&M footnote)

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"... and, among other things, did much inveigh against the writing of romances, that 500 years hence being wrote of matters in general, true as the romance of Cleopatra, the world will not know which is the true and which the false."

Seems to me English were behind in the publishing of novels. Pepys reads lots of plays, poetry, how-to books, histories, and sermons. Translations of novels from other languages, like "Don Quixote" and "The Romance of Cleopatra" were available. Margaret "Mad Madge" Lucas Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle (1623-1673) published 22 books following the Restoration, including Britain's first science fiction novel. We have to wait until 1684 for John Bunyan to publish "The Pilgrim’s Progress". Defoe didn't publish a novel until 1705. Something beside Mad Madge's efforts must be going on in the English novel department for these men to consider romances a problem. Anyone know some authors or titles?

StanB  •  Link

Watching the Lord Mayors show on TV today I'm reminded of just how old this ceremony is it dates from 1189 of course back in Sam's day it was on the 29th of Oct
In 1751, Great Britain replaced the Julian calendar with the Gregorian calendar; the Lord Mayor's Show was then moved to 9 November. In 1959, another change was made: the Lord Mayor's Show is now held on the second Saturday in November.
The Lord Mayor's Show has regularly been held on the scheduled day; it has not been moved since 1852, when the show made way for Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington's funeral
Especially poignant today is its taking place on the 11th day of the 11th month the 99th anniversary of Armistice day

Lest we forget

StanB  •  Link

And of course it blows my mind that I'm watching something that Sam actually watched,

Sasha Clarkson  •  Link

I'm sure that there are several instances of men who married an heiress taking their wife's surname to continue it.

One interesting case which comes to mind is Sir Hugh Smithson Bart (1714 -1786), who married Lady Elizabeth Seymour, heiress to the Earl of Northumberland's estates. He therefore took his wife's grandmother's maiden name of Percy, the surname of the earls, and was created first Duke of Northumberland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hug…

Of particular interest to our transatlantic friends is that the Duke had an illegitimate son, James Smithson, (1865 - 1729), whose will endowed the Smithsonian Institution in Washington. Smithson had inherited a considerable fortune from his mother's family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam…

Sasha Clarkson  •  Link

I took part in the Lord Mayor's show twice. Firstly in 1976, on the King's College London Student's Union float; in 1977 we didn't have a float, but the college principal, Sir Richard Way, hired an open coach, two horses and a driver, and invited the president, secretary (me) and vice-president of the students' union to accompany him in the procession. We students hired suitable costumes from Moss Bros. The President and Vice-President were ladies, and had quite exotic dresses; Sir Richard and I wore grey morning suits with top-hats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mor…

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

I thought Aphra Behn was mostly a playwrite, and after Pepys' time ... Oroonoko was a novella but not published until 1688.

Her Forc'd Marriage was first performed in 1670 by The Duke's Company,
The Amorous Prince, in 1671.
The Dutch Lover (1673),
Abdelazar, (1676),
The Town Fop, (1676),
The Debauchee, (1677),
The Rover (1677),
The Counterfeit Bridegroom, (1677)
Sir Patient Fancy (1678)
The Feigned Courtesans (1679).

Lisa Redmond in "Aphra Behn: A Secret Life by Janet Todd illuminates the life of a fascinating 17th-century woman"
says that in the 1680s Aphra Johnson Behn began to publish prose pieces, and her "Love Letters Between a Nobleman and his Sister" is one of the earliest novels in English. This is also 15 years after Pepys' diary.
https://historicalnovelsociety.or…

I have found notes that I need to look into Eliza Haywood and Delarivier Manley, but I haven't got around to them yet.

My point remains, the English were slow to embrace fiction.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"I thought Aphra Behn was mostly a playwrite, and after Pepys' time ... "

Aphra Behn (1640-1689) flourished (as they say) after the Diary (1660-1668), but was a contemporary of Pepys (1633–1703), whose active years as a naval administrator and MP reached a culmination in 1672-1689 when hers did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam…

Chris Squire UK  •  Link

Re: ’ . . when the greatest of our hurry is . . ’

‘hurry n. < uncertain . .
. . 4. a. Action accelerated by some pressure of circumstances, excitement, or agitation; undue or immoderate haste; the condition of being obliged to act quickly through having little time; eagerness to get something done quickly . .
1692 tr. C. de Saint-Évremond Misc. Ess. 77 To enjoy themselves equally in the hurry of Business, and the Repose of a Private Life . . ‘
……..
Re: ’Pourveyour of petty provisions’

‘purveyor, n. < Anglo-Norman . .
. . 1. b. A person who procures, provides, or supplies something; spec. a person whose business is the provision of food or other material necessities . .
. . 1635 F. Quarles Emblemes v. vi. 265 I love the Sea, She is my fellow-Creature; My carefull Purveyor; She provides me store . . ‘
……
(OED)

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Now I've explored these two -- fascinating -- women, while yes they were novelists and lived in the 17th century, they didn't publish novels until the 18th century.

Widening my search, I'll accept male novelists who published before Mad Madge and Bunyon.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Terry, if you want an idea of what Aphra MIGHT have been up to at this time, I highly recommend "Death's Bright Angel" by J.D. Davies.

Matt Newton  •  Link

Sasha Clarkson 3 days ago • Link • Flag

I'm sure that there are several instances of men who married an heiress taking their wife's surname to continue it.

On Skye, Scotlandshire, UK,
The Laird of Dunvegan took his wife's maiden name in order to inherit the estate.
MacLeods

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

The 'Tale of Two Swannes: a view of the banks of the River Lea,'
published in 1590. The verses close with an address 'To the Reader' which implies reading works of fiction, if not novels. Poetry is often fiction:

'To tell a Tale, and tell the Trueth withall,
To write of waters, and with them of land,
To tell of Rivers, where they rise and fall,
To tell where Cities, Townes, and Castles stand,
To tell their names, both old and newe,
With other things that be most true,

'Argues a Tale that tendeth to some good,
Argues a Tale that hath in it some reason,
Argues a Tale, if it be understood,
As looke the like, and you shall find it geason.
If, when you reade, you find it so,
Commend the worke and let it goe.'

from the preface to Devon, Its Moorlands, Streams and Coasts
Author: Lady Rosalind Northcote
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/ep…

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

A new candidate for the first English novelist:

"William Baldwin's Beware the Cat (1561) – a satirical book considered by some to be the first ever novel, which centres around a man who learns to understand the language of a group of terrifying supernatural cats, one of whom, Mouse-slayer, is on trial for promiscuity."

Gotta get around the censors somehow ... promiscuous cats works for me.

https://www.bbc.com/future/articl…

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