Tuesday 27 August 1661

This morning to the Wardrobe, and there took leave of my Lord Hinchingbroke and his brother, and saw them go out by coach toward Rye in their way to France, whom God bless. Then I was called up to my Lady’s bedside, where we talked an hour about Mr. Edward Montagu’s disposing of the 5000l. for my Lord’s departure for Portugal, and our fears that he will not do it to my Lord’s honour, and less to his profit, which I am to enquire a little after.

Hence to the office, and there sat till noon, and then my wife and I by coach to my cozen, Thos. Pepys, the Executor, to dinner, where some ladies and my father and mother, where very merry, but methinks he makes but poor dinners for such guests, though there was a poor venison pasty.

Hence my wife and I to the Theatre, and there saw “The Joviall Crew,” where the King, Duke and Duchess, and Madame Palmer, were; and my wife, to her great content, had a full sight of them all the while. The play full of mirth. Hence to my father’s, and there staid to talk a while and so by foot home by moonshine.

In my way and at home, my wife making a sad story to me of her brother Balty’s condition, and would have me to do something for him, which I shall endeavour to do, but am afeard to meddle therein for fear I shall not be able to wipe my hands of him again, when I once concern myself for him. I went to bed, my wife all the while telling me his case with tears, which troubled me.

26 Annotations

Bradford   Link to this

More "mirth" today: venison pasty #22!

Anent brother-in-law Balthazar, Pepys is "afeard to meddle therein for fear I shall not be able to wipe my hands of him again, when I once concern myself for him." In for a penny, Sam, in for a pound. Can't you just see him, swabbing his hands front and back against his pants like a little boy trying to clean himself off, after getting mired up with Balty, whose problems have problems?

Kevin Peter   Link to this

Uh oh! Balty's gotten himself into trouble again, and Elizabeth is hoping Sam will bail him out.

Didn't Balty try to get some free lunch from Sam once before?

Glyn   Link to this

Pepys the private detective

Being told to quietly check that Edward Montagu is spending the budget so as to get best value, and that any commissions get back to the family. I don't think they think that E.M. is being criminal, but he doesn't know as much about nautical matters as Sam now does so is more likely to be cheated or get a poor bargain from the merchants', ship-suppliers, etc. At least, that's my reading of it.

Glyn   Link to this

Where in the wedding vows does it say that when you marry the wife, you get a brother for free?

Australian Susan   Link to this

"my wife, to her great content, had a full sight of them all the while"
Bet Elizabeth would have been an avid reader of Hello! magazine in this day and age!
Is the Thomas they dine with (venison pasty *again*! wot, no seal flipper pie?)the one who had sneaked off to Brampton?? Are Pepys, father and son keeping in with him carefully??

Australian Susan   Link to this

"to enquire a little after"
5000 pounds is a very large sum. Lady M is worried and turns to Sam to ask discreet questions. I concur with Glyn's reading of this.
Interesting that Sam just records this, without patting himself on the back about how fortunate he is to be so treated by his betters etc as has been his wont to do. Seems he has got more self-confidence in his powers and knows his worth.

Pauline   Link to this

"Is the Thomas they dine with...the one who had sneaked off to Brampton?
This Thomas (The Executor) is, according to L&M likely a first cousin of Sam's dad. The two Thomases who have left town without notice are his dad's older brother and his son--uncle and first cousin to Sam.

vicente   Link to this

'Where in the wedding vows does it say that when you marry the wife, you get a brother for free? ' NEVER free, nutin' is free, if it says so on the label, run, because it is usually the most expensive item on the menu.
The wife's brother has been the bone of contention in so many families. So much so, it seems to be one of those genetic defects: 'tis mostly always the lassies little brother, poor wee darlin'.
so sorry_: 'Didicere flere feminae in mendacium.' Syrus, Maxims.
otherwise in saxon etc.,
Woman has learned the use of tears to deceive.
Les femmes ont appris - pleurer pour mentir.
As mulheres aprenderam a chorar para enganar.
http://www.kocher.pro.br/siro/siro_d.htm

vicente   Link to this

Disposal and slight of hand, by Edward, Mother seems to know her son.
xref incorrect maybe/s/bhttp://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/113/

Robert Gertz   Link to this

Good ole Balty, swaggering soldier of no fortune...

Interesting marital clue that Beth can get round our boy with tears, though I'm sure they were real, given Balty's sit in the world. Nice to see her in compassion mode, rather than fuming at maids.

Best to check the household accounts tonight Sam...Or, on second thought, don't...Be a good guy and keep those sharp eyes closed this once.

vicente   Link to this

errata; wrong neddy: so many eds in the "...Montegues'where we talked an hour about Mr. Edward Montagu's disposing of the 5000l….” My lady ain’ daft. good instincts.

Pauline   Link to this

"...took leave of my Lord Hinchingbroke and his brother, and saw them go out by coach...in their way to France."
Edward and Sidney, at ages 13 and 11, are off to be educated in France.

Any ideas to what school? Or the advantage over being educated in England at this time?

Australian Susan   Link to this

Thomas & Thomas & Thomas
Thanks, Pauline for sorting out one from t'other!

Mary   Link to this

Thos. Pepys the Executor.

L&M make it clear that this was Thos. Pepys, a Westminster businessman. His title "the Executor" is regularly used by Sam hereafter to distinguish him from the other two Thomases. After 1663 this Thomas moved to Hatcham in Surrey and was also named as 'Thomas of Hatcham'. It's not clear which will or wills he was executor of.

He was first mentioned in the diary on January 5th 1660, when Sam criticized him for serving a venison pasty 'that was palpable beef'. Presumably the pasty served today was at least venison, even if it was a poor thing.

Australian Susan   Link to this

Balty
It looks as though little brother has pricked up his ears at the thought of inheritances, estates, loadza money etc. and has egged sister on to see if some of this can flow his way??? Please, sister, please ask him, pleasssse!
As wasps to the honey pot....

E   Link to this

"Edward and Sidney, at ages 13 and 11, are off to be educated in France."

Thanks Pauline for this interesting snippet, which opens up a world of questions about education then. Pepys himself went to the town grammar school, and London surely had good schools the boys could attend. Today's expensive "public" boarding schools with long histories seem to have started as foundations for poor scholars -- were they still acting that way at this date? I had envisaged that being educated by your own tutor was the norm for the rich -- at times possibly sharing with cousins or friends. Is that what the Monatgu children are doing? They seem young to be sent to a school abroad in those days of difficult travel, but one can see them being entrusted to friends for a bit of polishing in France.

But then again, what was the youngest age for joining a regiment or a ship for officer training? The eldest is I think only a year or so off acquiring some of the responsibilities which we see as adult ones.

I wonder if there is a fear that things may yet turn against the King? That these two might have to make their future on the continent. Or are they merely being prepared for a possible diplomatic/courtier role?

Jenny Doughty   Link to this

People Edward's age were often taken on as midshipmen in the navy, I think, and thus officers-in-training, so it's evident that they are thought of as almost ready for some adult responsibility.

Mary   Link to this

the two young Mountagus

Whilst in France, they will be in the charge of Abbe Walter Mountagu, cousin to Sandwich. He is very well connected at the French court, having been appointed spiritual and political adviser to Henrietta-Maria, later occupying the same office for her daughter Henrietta. During the English Civil Wars he remained in France, organising supplies for the Royalist armies.

He published a play, some books of verse and devotional works. In 1670 he was to assist in the negotiations that produced the Treaty of Dover.

In 1661 he is about 60 years old and remains a staunch convert to the Roman Catholic church.

Glyn   Link to this

Regarding Kevin Peter's question: "Didn't Balty try to get some free lunch from Sam once before?”

Just a few times!

6 April 1660

This morning came my brother-in-law Balty to see me, and to desire to be here with me as a Reformado, which did much trouble me

18 June 1660

This evening my wife's brother, Balty, came to me to let me know his bad condition and to get a place for him, but I perceive he stands upon a place for a gentleman, that may not stain his family when, God help him, he wants bread.

7 November 1660

Among other things in discourse he told me how my wife's brother had a horse at grass with him, which I was troubled to hear, it being his boldness upon my score

dirk   Link to this

"home by moonshine"

September 8 (Gregorian) = 29 August (Julian/British) 18:00 hrs will be full moon.
Source:
http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/phase/pha...

vicente   Link to this

Re: brainwashing see Liza Picard : Education should be for the priviledged, so Charles II concluded, E. Picard P163.
The other reason would be the one mention'd by Sam about the Paduan educated MD relation, His French be not rite.
Sandwich wants his sons to speake the continental lanquage correctly, not the Isolationist version that no educated european understands or educated country bumkin.
[ I Know, first hand,today, me french accent failed, when I tried to read a Parisian letter to a blind Parisian Lady. wot yer say? was my encouragement]
[ age to be a Mid shipman, Even when I was thinking of sailing the sevens seas I had to have my Certs and pass the entrance exam's for Dartmouth and Cranwell by 15.5 yrs. naturally I became a foot slogger.]

Kevin Peter   Link to this

Excellent work, Glyn. I hadn't realized Balty was mentioned so many times.

Phil Gyford   Link to this

I've belatedly changed the link for "Mr. Edward Montagu" to this Edward: http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/113/ Thanks Vincente.

Louise Hudson   Link to this

Too bad Sam missed the phrase, "When Mama's not happy, nobody's happy," by about 400 years. This would apply to both his mother and his wife.

Bill   Link to this

"took leave of my Lord Hinchingbroke and his brother"
"we talked an hour about Mr. Edward Montagu’s disposing of the 5000l"

Because of annotations above we have these 2 differently named individuals linked to the same person: the 12/13 year old son of Sandwich. I think this is wrong just on the face of it. But there's more.

Was the son really given 5000l. to dispose of during his education abroad while under the supervision of his uncle? Maybe. What profit would "my lord" gain from this money?

How has the young son been referred to in the past? Before Oct. 1660 he is called "Mr. Edward,", Mr. Edward Montagu." After October the young son is consistently referred to by his new title: "Lord Hinchingbrooke." (8 times, twice more as "my young lord.") SP is almost always consistent in referring to individuals by their titles.

Who else is called "Mr. Edward Montagu?" Edward Mountagu (Ned) (the the first cousin twice removed of Sandwich.) http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/670/#ref... (8 times since the diary began.) Unfortunately the only 2 times he is mentioned in 1661 before today (in July) seem to have no relevance to the 5000l.

But. There is an overlooked "smoking gun."

"in his absence [Sandwich's absence] as to this great preparation, as I shall receive orders from my Lord Chancellor and Mr. Edward Montagu" on June 10, 1661.

"To Whitehall to my Lord’s, where I found Mr. Edward Montagu and his family come to lie during my Lord’s absence." on June 14, 1661.

In both cases the person linked to (without any contextual evidence) is Edward Mountagu (2nd Earl of Manchester, Lord Chamberlain) http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/671/ (Sandwich's cousin) This Edward was mentioned 9 times earlier in the diary, always by title, never by the name Edward.

So, this "Mr. Edward Montagu" has a business and family link with Sandwich in June and is probably the "Mr. Edward Montagu" referred to today. It might be the Lord Chamberlain but internal evidence indicates Ned. It is not Lord Hinchingbrooke.

Chris Squire UK   Link to this

I agree with Bill. SP would have used the title [even if it was just a courtesy title] of anyone who had one or referred to them as 'my lord'. This would be automatic in an age of rank and deference where title and rank counted for so much.

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