Friday 13 September 1667

Called up by people come to deliver in ten chaldron of coals, brought in one of our prizes from Newcastle. The rest we intend to sell, we having above ten chaldron between us. They sell at about 28s. or 29s. per chaldron; but Sir W. Batten hath sworn that he was a cuckold that sells under 30s., and that makes us lay up all but what we have for our own spending, which is very pleasant; for I believe we shall be glad to sell them for less. To the office, and there despatched business till ten o’clock, and then with Sir W. Batten and my wife and Mrs. Turner by hackney-coach to Walthamstow, to Mrs. Shipman’s to dinner, where Sir W. Pen and my Lady and Mrs. Lowther (the latter of which hath got a sore nose, given her, I believe, from her husband, which made me I could not look upon her with any pleasure), and here a very good and plentifull wholesome dinner, and, above all thing, such plenty of milk meats, she keeping a great dairy, and so good as I never met with. The afternoon proved very foul weather, the morning fair. We staid talking till evening, and then home, and there to my flageolet with my wife, and so to bed without any supper, my belly being full and dinner not digested. It vexed me to hear how Sir W. Pen, who come alone from London, being to send his coachman for his wife and daughter, and bidding his coachman in much anger to go for them (he being vexed, like a rogue, to do anything to please his wife), his coachman Tom was heard to say a pox, or God rot her, can she walk hither? These words do so mad me that I could find in my heart to give him or my Lady notice of them.


30 Annotations

Terry Foreman  •  Link

John Evelyn's Diary

13th September, 1667. Between the hours of twelve and one, was born my second daughter, who was afterward christened Elizabeth.

http://bit.ly/d482SJ

Terry Foreman  •  Link

Ormond to Clarendon
Written from: Kilkenny
Date: 13 September 1667

The first letter that ever gave the Duke the least notice that the taking away of the Great Seal was thought of, was dated 24th August; by letters of the 31st he was assured that it was done. Of the reason, or manner, more than that in general it was said to be for the King's ease, & for Clarendon's security, he is still ignorant. ...

How little soever it can contribute to Clarendon's own contentment, he will not, the writer knows ... refuse him the knowledge of what it may be proper to inform him of. ... The substance of the misfortune is not without many precedents; familiar to Lord Clarendon in History; some, his own experience can furnish. Circumstances may aggravate, or may alleviate; but the succours from within are what make all crosses supportable. It is the writer's hearty prayer that of such succours Clarendon may find plenty. ...

The bearer, Mr Ryves, is one of the writer's family. ...
_____

Ormond to Arlington
Written from: Kilkenny
Date: 13 September 1667

A week has been spent here in diligent conference on the business of Revenue. The result is that the King is in greater debt to the Army, and otherwise, than his Exchequer is like to pay; yet the debt is not so great as was feared. If Peace continue, there is hope in course of time to overcome it. ... Among the measures to be proposed to his Majesty is the sending hither of £30,000, in milled brass, or copper, farthings, coined; or else of the workmen, tools, & materials, requisite for the coining of them here.

Answer to his Lordship's letter of 14th August, and an account of the Guinea ship, come to Lord Arlington from the Council Board. ...

http://www.rsl.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/projects/cart…

Australian Susan  •  Link

Milk meats are dishes made from milk. Wonder what they had? Junket? And is perhaps our Sam lactose intolerant if he still felt his food was undigested hours later.

cum salis grano  •  Link

milk meats maybe just maybe milk fed beef and or swine.

cum salis grano  •  Link

OED:
milkmeat, n.
Food made with or from milk.
1440 Promp. Parv. (Harl. 221) 338/1 Mylke mete, or mete made wythe mylke.
c1450 in T. Austin Two 15th-cent. Cookery-bks. (1888) 106 Milkemete. Take faire mylke and floure [etc.].

1582 S. BATEMAN Vppon Bartholome, De Proprietatibus Rerum XV. 244 The men..eate seld before the Sunne going downe, and use flesh, milke meats, fish, & fruits, more then Britons.
1633 Court Bk. Bishopric of Orkney f. 89, {Ygh}e cam to hir and brocht with {ygh}ow some melk meat.
1699 Philos. Trans. (Royal Soc.) 21 62 The various sorts of Cheese, and some other Milk-Meats, made in Italy

1764 T. HARMER Observ. X. iv. 154 One would have imagined..the Septuagint would have been at no loss in translating passages which speak of cheese, or in determining what they meant, if some other kind of milk~meats were meant in them.
1825 J. JAMIESON Etymol. Dict. Sc. Lang. Suppl., Milk-meat, milk and meal boiled together. 1876 F. K. ROBINSON Gloss. Words Whitby, Milk-meeats, custards, cheesecakes or curd-cakes, &c.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

FWIW, the L&M Large Glossary defines "milke-meat" as "dairy produce."

cum salis grano  •  Link

They sell at about 28s. or 29s. per chaldron
Sell by the bucket.

Dawn  •  Link

"John Evelyn’s Diary
13th September, 1667. Between the hours of twelve and one, was born my second daughter, who was afterward christened Elizabeth."

How many Elizabeths are to be found in this diary now? Its still a popular name today.

Michael Robinson  •  Link

"Called up by people come to deliver in ten chaldron of coals, ... and that makes us lay up all but what we have for our own spending, ..."

Am I the only one to see Seething Lane and the Navy Office courtyards filling with mountain ranges of coal? Brings to mind the apocryphal story of Keynes, when Bursar, forgetting about forward cover for a futures contract and, to the consternation of the Fellows, the King's College quad being filled up with a delivery of bales of rubber

Robert Gertz  •  Link

"...bidding his coachman in much anger to go for them #he being vexed, like a rogue, to do anything to please his wife#..."

Bit hard to tell if Sam is denouncing Penn as too willing to please Lady Penn (wuss) or for going about it in a put-upon, rudely angry manner (jerk), though I think the latter. After all, for all his infidelities and his occasional lapses into boorish behavior, Sam does strive to make Bess happy...And frequently suggests his valiant efforts to secure her future as well as his are what entitle him to a bit of fun now and then.

Phoenix  •  Link

Fun to imagine but not quite mountainous. Ten chaldrons would approximate a pile 5x8x10 feet. Enough work for man and horse to handle and probably too much for many of us today.

Mary  •  Link

Those chaldrons.

We don't know what kind of chaldrons Sam is talking about here. The Newcastle chaldron was legally fixed at 52.5 cwt in 1678 (5880lbs) whereas the London chaldron was much smaller at 28cwt (3136lbs).

language hat  •  Link

"It vexed me to hear how Sir W. Pen, who come alone from London, being to send his coachman for his wife and daughter, and bidding his coachman in much anger to go for them (he being vexed, like a rogue, to do anything to please his wife), his coachman Tom was heard to say a pox, or God rot her, can she walk hither? These words do so mad me that I could find in my heart to give him or my Lady notice of them."

This whole passage is confusing; can anyone figure out what exactly enrages our diarist?

cum salis grano  •  Link

tongue in cheek:
London cauldron, a common sense approach to allow for shrinkage [lost] due to pieces falling off the shovel as they leave the hold, then more disappearing off the back of the wagon before delivery.

Mary  •  Link

Tentative analysis.

Two separate but connected actions annoy and offend Sam. Both concern propriety.

Firstly, Pen's evident exasperation at having to send the coach back for his wife. It's 'letting the side down' to allow his displeasure (i.e. Pen's) to be observed, not least to be observed by the coachman because that leads, in turn to...

.... the gross impertinence of the coachman uttering such blasphemous words about his employer's wife. Whatever a servant may think about this master or mistress, it is intolerable that he should utter such sentiments in the hearing of others.

arby  •  Link

So... Did he mention it to Penn and Lady Penn, or not? I'm befused.

Mary  •  Link

Did he mention it?

No, I don't think so - at least, not yet. The clue is in the "could" not "did".

arby  •  Link

Right you are, thanks.

Phoenix  •  Link

Chaldron is a dry measure with Newcastle at 32 bushels and London at 36. What a chaldron actually weighed depended on whether one was selling or buying, that is whether you shipped from Newcastle or bought in London. Taxes were levied on volume and coal was sold by volume.

language hat  •  Link

Thanks, Mary, that makes perfect sense.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"Sir W. Batten hath sworn that he was a cuckold that sells under 30s., and that makes us lay up all but what we have for our own spending, which is very pleasant; for I believe we shall be glad to sell them for less."

For the movements in the price of coal, L&M refer us to: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/06/26/

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Can anyone suggest a good book about the Penn family in 1667? No mention of young Wm. who is up to things his father would not approve of as well. This is all just too funny.

Tonyel  •  Link

"Called up by people come to deliver in ten chaldron of coals, brought in one of our prizes from Newcastle."
Has there been any mention of how this coal became a prize? I assume they are not raiding Newcastle collier ships - perhaps some of the recent prize goods were exchanged for coal?

Scube  •  Link

"It vexed me to hear how Sir W. Pen, who come alone from London, being to send his coachman for his wife and daughter, and bidding his coachman in much anger to go for them (he being vexed, like a rogue, to do anything to please his wife), his coachman Tom was heard to say a pox, or God rot her, can she walk hither? These words do so mad me that I could find in my heart to give him or my Lady notice of them."
I read this a bit differently. It sounds like Sir W. has lost his temper at his wife, being angry that the coach must be sent back to pick her up. It may be that the coachman is defending the wife here, despite the "god rot her." If it way too far to walk, his question may be to make the point that of course he needs to go back for her.
BTW, as a late comer to this site, I am frequently impressed and always grateful for all of the insights back in 2010 (as well as the fewer but no less excellent observations on the second time around.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

'"Called up by people come to deliver in ten chaldron of coals, brought in one of our prizes from Newcastle."
'Has there been any mention of how this coal became a prize? I assume they are not raiding Newcastle collier ships - perhaps some of the recent prize goods were exchanged for coal?'

The coal was very welcome by London which was having trouble cooking their food this summer, but the coal was not the prize.
An English privateer must had caught this ship ... possibly from the Dutch? ... and taken it back to Newcastle, just as the Pepys, Hogg and the Flying Greyhound story has played out.
That prize ship has now been put to work bringing much-needed coal to London ... so the Peace Treaty must have resulted in the blockade of Newcastle being lifted.
And yes, the blockading Dutch would have raided English collier ships, which has been why Pepys has been complaining about the cost of fuel ... the Dutch wanted to capture English ships and coal as much as the English wanted to catch their ships and produce.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"How many Elizabeths are to be found in this diary now? It's still a popular name today."

The name Elizabeth then and now is popular because we both live in the times of the two much-respected Queen Elizabeths.
That takes care of the Royalists.

And as for the Puritans, Cromwell's wife's name was Elizabeth. And in the Bible:
'One day Zechariah was serving as a priest before God . . . . An angel from the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw the angel, he was startled and overcome with fear. The angel said, “Don’t be afraid, Zechariah. Your prayers have been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will give birth to your son and you must name him John.” Luke 1:8, 11-13 CEB'

I would be interested to know if Elizabeth was equally as popular as a name during the reigns of the Georges, Edwards and Victoria.

As to your question about how many Elizabeths are in the Diary, feel free to go to the Encyclopedia, scroll down to People, and start counting. We'd love to hear the answer.

Gerald Berg  •  Link

Does Mrs. Lowther’s bloodied nose have a play in this affair? Pepys is made uncomfortable:

“which made me I could not look upon her with any pleasure”

That the coachman cursed implies brotherly collusion with the boss. ie habitual.

As for the cauldrons- how much money we talking? Didn’t sound like much to me.
And why the:

“for I believe we shall be glad to sell them for less“

Sam happy with less?

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Hi Gerald ... "Does Mrs. Lowther’s bloodied nose have a play in this affair?"

My take on Pepys' repeated snarky remarks about Peg Penn Lowther is that she's the one who got away. There was that afternoon when Pepys wrote something like, "This afternoon I will have her" a couple of weeks after her marriage. In the event, someone decided to escort them, and after that Pepys never got her alone again, and she stopped coming by the office.
see https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/04/13/#c549…
and https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/05/23/
and the final missed opportunity on https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/06/18/
He had every reason to expect success after years of grooming.

Now he's playing the "she's not worthy of me" game, like some smitten teenager. But she's the teenager, and clearly enjoying herself.

The coachman's comments and his relationship to Adm. Penn are too obscure for me to know what was really going on. Perhaps it'll be more clear later.

And as to the sale of the cauldrons of coal: Pepys has done the maths, and I don't think he would allow himself to sell for a loss. He doesn't strike me as having philanthropic instincts at this point in his career. He won't even help Lady Jemima and the Montagu family, who have been his friends since he was a boy.

Pepys must see incredible poverty every day, and has hardened his heart to starvation, unpaid sailors, widows, orphans, cripples and people so poor they can't escape the ruined city. It was a time when only the strong survived.

James Morgan  •  Link

It sounded to me like the coal was their common property, and Penn insisted they all hold out for 30s on the sale of any excess. Pepys is anticipating the price will come down with the peace, and thinks they'll eventually be glad to sell for less, but it seems he let Penn have his way. Perhaps Penn is thinking it will go higher with winter coming on.

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