Sunday 11 November 1660

(Lord’s day). This morning I went to Sir W. Batten’s about going to Deptford to-morrow, and so eating some hog’s pudding of my Lady’s making, of the hog that I saw a fattening the other day at her house, he and I went to Church into our new gallery, the first time it was used, and it not being yet quite finished, there came after us Sir W. Pen, Mr. Davis, and his eldest son. There being no woman this day, we sat in the foremost pew, and behind us our servants, and I hope it will not always be so, it not being handsome for our servants to sit so equal with us.

This day also did Mr. Mills begin to read all the Common Prayer, which I was glad of.

Home to dinner, and then walked to Whitehall, it being very cold and foul and rainy weather. I found my Lord at home, and after giving him an account of some business, I returned and went to my father’s where I found my wife, and there we supped, and Dr. Thomas Pepys, who my wife told me after I was come home, that he had told my brother Thomas that he loved my wife so well that if she had a child he would never marry, but leave all that he had to my child, and after supper we walked home, my little boy carrying a link, and Will leading my wife.

So home and to prayers and to bed.

I should have said that before I got to my Lord’s this day I went to Mr. Fox’s at Whitehall, when I first saw his lady, formerly Mrs. Elizabeth Whittle, whom I had formerly a great opinion of, and did make an anagram or two upon her name when I was a boy. She proves a very fine lady, and mother to fine children.

To-day I agreed with Mr. Fox about my taking of the 4000l. of him that the King had given my Lord.

50 Annotations

First Reading

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"for our servants to sit so equal to us" so much for brotherhood..., that means his sister would have to ride in the back of the bus

Jenny Doughty  •  Link

I think Sam would have recognised the sentiments behind the later Victorian hymn:
The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate
God made them high or lowly
And ordered their estate.

vincent  •  Link

Sam will nary be a "leveller", 'tis the tradesman entrance for likes of the hoi poloi. Oh! how a spot of cash goes so well with the Esq,MA,and The silk stalkings. I do believe "He" likes the Idea of "Divine Right of Kings"
Beware Sam " Silius Italiicus from Punica,XI,3
"Stat nulla diu mortalibus usquam, Fortuna titubante, fides"

andy  •  Link

"it not being handsome for our servants to sit so equal with us", so typical of Sam now, after the return of the King, and all the privileges Sam has got for himself.

Paul Miller  •  Link

"and so eating some hog's pudding of my Lady's making”

Hogs Pudding
Clean some pig skins, and let them soak in salt and water. Take some fresh pork, lean and fat, put through the mincing machine, then add bread crumbs, thyme, salt and pepper. Thoroughly mix all together, take skins out of water and dry, stuff the mixture tightly, then tie up each end. Boil until cooked. The Hogs Pudding can be eaten cold, or fried in slices if preferred.

Here read where a cook maid robs five tailors with nothing but a hogs pudding in her hands.…

David A. Smith  •  Link

"it not being handsome for our servants to sit so equal with us"
Agree with Andy and Vincent -- in this throwaway there is both status-consciousness (what will others think of me that I sit with my servants?) and pure snobbery (I should not have to mingle with these). And perhaps just a whiff of resentment -- they should *know* it's embarrassing to me to be seen with them, they should have the good grace to sit further back.

Nix  •  Link

I wouldn't be too censorious --

Is there any reason to believe Samuel would have thought differently in his previous, lower estate? He seems (to me, anyway) to have bought into the system for good or ill. I don't recall him questioning the privileges of those above him (even when he has disapproved of their conduct). That's simply the way of the world he was living in.

Sjoerd Spoelstra  •  Link

Thank you for visiting
Here is the result of your request.

Rearranging the letters of "Elisabeth Whittle" gives:

Tie best Whitehall.
Blast It! I the wheel.
Healthiest, it blew.
Shh! able, elite twit.
Hesitate with bell.
It beset Whitehall.
The wit libels hate.
It is the lethal web.
While the able tits.
With the ablest lie.
The wit hates libel.
Well bite this hate.
That the wise libel.
He's the liable twit.
I blew this athlete.
Bathe whilst elite.
Wheel this able tit.
The wet, liable shit.
Belt while atheist.
The sweet, ill habit.
With the tables lie.
White bell atheist.
Swill bite the hate.
The ill web atheist.
I belittle wet hash.
Shit! libel wet hate.
Bite the waste hill.
While the stale bit.

and many many more...

Generated by a cut-down version of the Anagram Genius software.

Jenny Doughty  •  Link

That anagram website is fun! Thank you Sjoerd :-)

The content of the 'hogs pudding' sounds very much like modern sausagemeat, so I think this would have been like a cross between a sausage and a haggis.

Peter  •  Link

What have you started? Hogs Pudding....Ugh! Pongs did

Carolina  •  Link

Hogs pudding - is this not black pudding? Made with blood and fat in pigs intestines, rather than the recipe give above for a mixture of lean and fat pork in pig skins?

Jenny Doughty  •  Link

Black pudding is specifically made with blood, so this recipe doesn't sound like black pudding to me. However, it's a very British thing to put breadcrumbs (they use rusk nowadays) in with the meat in sausages, unlike the all-meat continental sausages.

Andrew Hamilton  •  Link

Hog's pudding...

Couldn't resist passing on this recipe,
from Edward Lear's Nonsense Cookery:


Take a pig, three or four years of age, and tie him by the off-hind leg to a post. Place 5 pounds of currants, 5 of sugar, 2 pecks of peas, 18 roast chestnuts, a candle, and six bushels of turnips, within his reach; if he eats these, constantly provide him with more.

Then, procure some cream, some slices of Cheshire cheese, four quinces of foolscap paper, and a packet of black pins. Work the whole into a paste, and spread it out to dry on a sheet of clean brown waterproof linen.

When the paste is perfectly dry, but not before, proceed to beat the Pig violently, with the handle of a large broom. If he squeals, beat him again.

Visit the paste and beat the pig alternately for some days, and ascertain that if at the end of that period the whole is about to turn into Gosky Patties.

If it does not then, it never will; and in that case the Pig may be let loose, and the whole process may be considered as finished.

Judy Bailey  •  Link

And wasn't it just last winter or early spring that SP was counting his total worth at only a handful of pounds?

How fast he has become wealthy and snobbish!

Carolina  •  Link

Hogs pudding -
I "googled" it, came up with descriptions of sausage, not black pudding. Such a difficult job to distinguish what was meant by the description of something given at the time.Word usage has changed so drastically over the years.Take Sam's use of the word "handsome" when describing the fact that the servants sit so close behind them.
Not handsome; does he mean, not a pleasant sight for the onlooker,are the servants so ugly or scary, or does he mean that it is not "proper"?
Isn't it such a pity that we can't ask anyone who lived in those times to translate for us !

David Quidnunc  •  Link

Pepysian Snobbery

Pepys's snobbishness seems to be limited to his own servants, not the servants of others. He still goes out and drinks with Shepley and, I think, some other servants. And he seems to have no hesitation in passing time with the servants at Lady Wright's home, where he takes a lute lesson on 9 November from Evans as he waits for Mountagu to become available.

vincent  •  Link

There are servants and THEN there are servants; The "Butler" is The Numero Uno and don't forget it. Quote of my illgotten youth "Familiarity BREEDS contempt". For those that never suffered being brainwashed and the indignaties of Fagging and barrack square. It is OK for the Little Master to takes a few Liberties for 'e is a proper Gent ye no. The stratas were well defined. The Valets 'ad Valet.
So glad things have changed.

dirk  •  Link

Pepysian Snobbery

Maybe it's not so much snobbery as self preservation. In his own home it's obviously very important to keep the servants in their proper place. Domestic life may become difficult when boundaries between master and servants are no longer clear and indisputable. This may explain why Sam feels himself free to converse with other people's servants in an altogether different way.

Mary  •  Link

Gossip with the servants of others.

Besides, one might pick up useful knowledge/rumour of the doings in other significant households by exercising a degree of familiarity with the servants. Knowledge can afford power to influence, pre-empt, subvert or what you will.

Peter  •  Link

Sam and the servants

It is possible that what is going on here is more familiar to us all than perhaps we realise even though most (if not all) of us don't have to play the role of being "masters" or "servants" in the narrow sense. Look at any hierarchy and you will see instances where people take exception to those that they perceive as being their inferiors receiving benefits that they consider the preserve of the higher-ups. This kind of thing happens all the time in companies in relation to all sorts of things (amount of office space, type of furniture, parking spaces...the list goes on and on). Usually the resentment it generates is apparent only in body-language, ill-temper etc. What is different here is that Sam comes out and states the matter quite baldly and, of course, this is what is so great about the diary. Perhaps we shouln't be surprised that he feels the way he does, but we should be surprised (and grateful) that he tells us.

Kevin Peter  •  Link

In regards to Sam being bothered by where his servants sit: I think that Sam is quite conscious of how he looks to others. He is moving up in society and wishes to make a good impression on his peers. He should therefore be rather nervious about giving his servants too many privileges: it just wouldn't look good.

Nix has a good point. This is simply the way things are done in that society. It doesn't bother him when those of nobility treat him as lower class. A few days ago Montagu went to play cards and Sam had to go elsewhere and practice his music. It simply wouldn't be appropriate for him to be playing cards with his lord and his lord's peers.

David A. Smith  •  Link

"and I hope it will not always be so"
'The past is a foreign country, people do things differently there.'
Since my previous post, and after reading others' comments, I realize that *both* elements could be in play: (1) Sam is embarrassed because of his elevated station, and (2) there could indeed be a tangible cost to him in the propinquity. Status means something -- something very material -- and just because *we* put on the airs of egalitarianism, he might not have that luxury.

But I do think he might be projecting just a wee bit ....

Pauline  •  Link

Sam and where the servants sit
The new gallery in the church is being used for the first or second time and the wives haven't accompanied the men so there is room in the forward pews and the servants sit there. I think Sam and his fellow-gallerymen just let this seating happen by chance, and in hindsight Sam is considering how they should order their gallery in the future (and may have discussed this after church with the others).

I'm with Nix on this; let's not be too censorious. Standard practices of the time can't be held too personally against a young man living them.

Eric Walla  •  Link

I agree with Pauline ...

... for we forget the fact that there are invisible boundaries that still exist in our own societies which resemble this situation rather closely. When Sam hobnobs with servants, he is doing so in a personal capacity, and we wouldn't have expected him to do the same were he sitting in his office and formally filling the official role to which he had been appointed.

I can easily imagine that at this time Church inspired the same hierarchical structure, especially considering the pecking order and the distinction between sitting/standing for services. Sam and colleagues have been building a gallery and, up until now, it had been a personal space, filled with carpenters and workmen; now that they're actually sitting in it for a service, however, it becomes a social/official space.

The boundary between personal and social/official was crossed as soon as the gallery came into use--but he did not realize it until after the service had ended.

vincent  •  Link

Censorius no. observe yes. comment yes.
SP is at least honest with self, at least in his Diurnal. These are the times when all "Thoughts" get an airing and not passed through the filter of ones' betters. Even Shakespeare felt the blast of Criticism for his literary works when they judged his work and that he failed, because he did not make his presence Known to them by puntting on the Isis or Granta.
You see he did not have that truly embossed scroll with Magister Artium or Magister Littarum

[D.Litt. not available at the time ?]

Harvey  •  Link

We've got absolutely no reason to be critcal of Sam... we all must live immersed in the culture of our times, and just as Sam accepted the need for public distance from his servants without question, our times have plenty of things that cannot be questioned without social disapproval. I can't mention what they are lest I be shunned, which proves the point. The more things change....


David Quidnunc  •  Link

Equality in this world and the next

There must be at least a dozen passages in the New Testament (and some in the Old) that hammer home the point that the lowly are not only equal to the great in God's eyes, but they have an easier chance at getting through that eye of the needle into heaven.

It should not only make us scratch our heads at the glaring sight of inequality in church -- it should make any thinking Christian, even back then, a little uncomfortable. The subject would necessarily come up again and again from reader after reader of the Bible (not all readers, but an uncomfortable number). Yes, there are other Biblical passages that call for submitting to the rulers of society ("the things that are Caesar's," for instance), but that subversive idea of equality must always have been spewing out into the social and intellectual atmosphere -- much harder to stop when literacy and Bible reading was on the rise. Some theorizing would be needed for the higher classes to keep their consciences clear.

But advocating that society reflect more of that theological (theoretical?) equality was a bit radical, even for the Puritans. I recall seeing old churches in Massachusetts where the Puritans had assigned seats (although I think all members of the household sat together, the better seats were assigned to those households with higher social standing). Didn't they call 16th-century advocates of equality the Levelers? The practical argument that religious radicals were disrupting society too much would be enough for most to reject their ideas in the 1660s. But some ideas are too powerful to push away forever. Some Medieval peasant revolts in England took up the idea, and it would come up later.

Any doubt that the idea of equality under God influenced political theories of equality? How 'bout, "When Adam delt(?) and Eve span, who then was the gentleman" (from the Middle Ages), and "... the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them ... all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ..." That's 116 years in the future.

David Quidnunc  •  Link

"When Adam delved and Eve span, who then was the gentleman"
-- John Ball, leading participant in the Peasant's Revolt of 1381. "He called for the ... establishment of a commonwealth based on social equality."…

It wouldn't surprise me if Pepys never says he's uncomfortable at the distance between the equality of those before God and those in society, even in church. Despite his liking of sermons, I don't see a lot of sensitivity toward spiritual things in his diary, and we can expect him to be a product of his times, led by the ideas and example of others, as most people are. (Sunday morning is said to be still the most racially segregated time of the week in the American South, even though some churches played an enormous role in the American anti-slavery and civil-rights movements. Who can expect more from Pepys?)

I guess my point is that the "firewood" of the equality debate was there in church on many Sundays. Pepys, like most people, wasn't the kind of person to notice it. It would surprise me if Evelyn, that more religious and more elite diarist, never showed any discomfort over inequality. I'm not very familiar with John Locke's writings, but he was a contemporary of Pepys (1632-1704), thought about becoming a minister before taking up political philosophy and must have thought about the subject.

Jenny Doughty  •  Link

This was one way in which the Quakers were felt to be subversive and revolutionary for their day. They used the terms 'thee' and 'thou' to all as a sign of equality. The use of titles or honours and "doffing the hat" were to be avoided even in the presence of the royal family. Not having a priest or anybody who would fulfil the function of one, and therefore no need of an altar, meeting houses were organised in a square with no place of greater or lesser standing.

vincent  •  Link

Equality-many of the heroes of the Inter Regnum came from less than Ideal circumstances.
The times needed winners and they came from all stratas, strangely The Amercian equality was not in evidence in 1940 , To be a Pilot needed a college degree, yet in that snobby RAF. Many of the pilots were butchers boys, Sgt pilots not commisioned(UK) vs commisioned(USA). Go figure.

Daniel Baker  •  Link

If I'm remembering correctly, Sam bought this pew. Doesn't he sit in the pew he bought every time he comes to church?

The reference to "there being no woman this day" may be significant. Was Sam normally in the frontmost of three pews, the woman or women in the pew behind, and the servants in the pew behind that? And then without the women present, the servants sat in the pew where the women normally sat, thus causing Sam's discomfort?

No doubt Sam is being snobbish, but from his point of view it is probably fair. He may well be thinking, "I maintain a respectful distance from my Lord and my other superiors; my servants ought to accord me the same respect."

Second Reading

Bill  •  Link

"it not being handsome for our servants to sit so equal with us"

I appreciate the comments about snobbery, status, culture, etc. but note that the servants didn't feel as uncomfortable sitting in the pew behind him as he felt sitting in the pew in front of them. It won't happen again though.

arby  •  Link

I read it as the women normally sitting in the foremost pew.

Louise Hudson  •  Link

We don't call them servants these days, but there are definite social divides. When I worked in a large corporation, you didn't find the executives going out to lunch with the secretaries--and certainly not with the cleaning staff! They wouldn't meet after work for a drink, either. If a male executive was seen having lunch or a drink with his secretary, tongues would wag. This took place in the land of "classlessness" and "equality" and not so many years ago, either.

Chris Squire UK  •  Link

‘Handsome . .
2. a. Of conduct, etc.: conforming to what is expected or approved; seemly; courteous, gracious . .
. . 1671 tr. A. de Courtin Rules Civility vi. 53 Because it is not so handsome to set full in his face, it will be esteemed good breeding, if he place himself..something side ways.
1694 E. Gibson Let. 1 Feb. in H. Ellis Orig. Lett. Eminent Literary Men (1843) 219 'Twill be handsome for me first to apply myself to the Provost, for fear it should otherwise be not well taken . . ‘


My thanks to all for the enjoyable conversation about who sat where - nothing is too small for us to discuss!

Annie B  •  Link

I can't believe I find no comments about Dr. Thomas Pepys... what a strange thing to say re: not marrying since he loved Elizabeth so much and would give all his things to her child...? Surely an odd comment, unless this was some common expression?

Also, is that really what Sam meant by making an anagram...? I wondered if there may be some other meaning...

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

11 November is St. Martin's Day ... aka Martinmas. So bring in your citrus trees, and park them in the living room until next April:

'In April about St. George his day, you shall set abroad your citron and orange trees, as also such other trees as you had kept within house from St. Martin's Day.' -- Richard Surflet, 1600

Third Reading

MartinVT  •  Link

"There being no woman this day"

We've mostly focused on the proximity of the servants, above, but two questions arise from that introductory clause:

First of all, why no ladies? Being seen at worship seems to be important to the gents; why isn't it also important to bring their wives?

Secondly, what would the seating arrangement be, if they did come along? Boy-girl-boy-girl, taking up a couple of rows? Girls in front, boys behind (suggested by Arby, above, but I doubt this)? Boys in front, ladies behind (also doesn't seem likely)? And then, wouldn't the help be seated right behind whoever took up the second row?

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Money talks, and so does the new Administration.

St. Olave's was The Navy Church, and the previous Puritan/Presbyterians must have been happy to mingle with their fellow parishoners.

But now the Book of Common Prayer is being reintroduced, and Charles II is making every effort to impose himself (and his representatives) as being in charge. "This day also did Mr. Mills begin to read all the Common Prayer, which I was glad of."

One way of establishing the status and influence of the Navy Commissioners within the parish is to put them 'on high' so the other parishoners have to look up at them in their private gallery on Sundays.

There were two rows of pews in the new gallery, so my guess is the usher at the door wanted the gallery to be full for its debut. The servants probably arrived first, and were directed up there by the usher. They knew to sit in the back seats by the wall.
The Commissioners, knowing their seats were saved, arrived right before the service started, and found only the front pew available.
Luckily none of the ladies had chosen to attend, so the Commissioners could comfortably take their places in the front.

Why were the ladies not there? We will ask that about Elizabeth many times during the Diary, and my guess is that when they counted heads for manditory attendance, they only counted male heads, and the ladies were given a pass so they could deal with children and lunch. Elizabeth, if she goes, is more likely to go to church in the afternoon.

Probably one of the Commissioners had a chat with the usher after the service and told him that the Navy Pew was for the Commissioners and their families only, and not to do that again. No big deal.

I never parked in the CEO's parking space either. No big deal. But if the parking lot attendant on a busy day had told me to park there ... hmmmm.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"Secondly, what would the seating arrangement be, if they did come along? Boy-girl-boy-girl, taking up a couple of rows?"

The seating arrangement would be first comes, possibly takes all, MartinVT.

The families sit together, but the children might be relegated to the back row where their inattention would attract less notice. Relatives and friends of the Commissioners also creep in there from time to time, leaving late arriving Commissioners with crampted quarters at best.
This isn't the last time we'll hear about seating negotiations and faux pas.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"...walked to Whitehall, it being very cold and foul and rainy weather."

What do you expect in November, Pepys?
Perhaps you needed time to think about things.
Just because Charles II has said he's cutting the number of London Hackney coaches last week doesn't mean they have disappeared off the streets -- but maybe the drivers don't want their horses slipping on the filthy cobble stones, so there aren't many available?
Plus it's Sunday, so maybe they have time off like the watermen?

For info on Hackney carriages, see…

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Yes, England had a class sytem for most of its history -- as did every other country in Europe. If you have nobility, you have a class system.

Please accept that as a fact as we're going to have to deal with the ramifications which almost cost England a war which happens during the Diary.
Pepys isn't a snob -- he hasn't cut all his buddies from the Exchequer or Merchant Taylors School. But as low man on the Navy totem pole, he wants people to acknowledge that there is a totem pole and he has the privilege of being on it.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"... we walked home, my little boy carrying a link, and Will leading my wife."

I'd like to say Pepys carried the umbrella, but if he had one, I think he'd boast about it.

"In French, ‘parapluie’ means umbrella, with ‘para’ meaning protection. Whereas in English, umbrella has the latin stem ‘umbra’ meaning shadow so has a direct link to its predecessor, the parasol.

"It was only by the 16th century that the umbrella as we know it became a reality. The decisive moment when oil and wax covers replaced the status quo covers on parasols. It is from this moment that the umbrella became an item to protect against bad weather and rain. From this point on, the parasol and the umbrella have separate destinies.

"In the 17th century, the umbrella became a hit in Western countries, especially in stylish Italy, France and Britain. At first, it was only considered a feminine accessory to protect women from the rain, but English men progressively adopted it through the 18th century with Jonas Hanway leading the way for the era of umbrellas for men."

So Will Hewer is escorting Elizabeth, and Pepys is sloshing around in the muck, or picking his way around it?

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"... Dr. Thomas Pepys, who my wife told me after I was come home, that he had told my brother Thomas that he loved my wife so well that if she had a child he would never marry, but leave all that he had to my child, ..."
"Surely an odd comment, unless this was some common expression?"

An odd comment, yes, but it was intended as a compliment, and if true, Pepys and Elizabeth should know that this was a generous sentiment they might want to follow up on.

We are so used to pregnancy being voluntary and sometimes assisted by the medical profession that it's hard for us to comprehend how much pressure there was back in the day to perpetuate the family and the human race. This was Elizabeth's role in life, and that she and Sam had not taken care of business yet was strange to their relatives.
This could be Uncle Thomas' way of keeping his money and property in the family.
We know Elizabeth was gorgeous, young and a little bit exotic. Clearly Uncle Thomas enjoyed looking at her. C'est la vie!
(Ask him over for Christmas lunch, Elizabeth. The old bachelor needs attention.)

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"... there came after us Sir W. Penn, Mr. Davis, and his eldest son."

Fortunately "Lady" Jane Davis didn't come to church today, but I won my private bet -- they have a teenage son. Another opportunity for Pepys and Davis Snr. to sit together as colleagues, craftily engineered by the Sir Williams.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"... the hog that I saw a fattening the other day at her house ..."

So they personal lots as well as the communal garden??? The Pepys' goose he bought yesterday, if live, must be out there now? If dead, it's probably aging in the basement for a few days.…

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Does anyone have any idea what Rev. Ralph is talking about:
"Sr J. Jacob . in 56. in arrears 6 year. being. 24 received since 10li. there is due of that 14 and to Sept. 29. 1660. four years more being in all. 16. besides. 14."?

I'm guessing Sir John Jacob was 6 years in arrears on field 56. From there on??? And what business it was of the Rev., I have no idea.
Since it's not 'The Diary', who cares? But if it's country code for something you know about, I'm interested.

Sjoerd22  •  Link

anno Domini 2024
ChatGpt says:
One amusing anagram for "Elisabeth Whittle" is "Hellish Wit Battle."

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