Monday 4 April 1664

Up, and walked to my Lord Sandwich’s; and there spoke with him about W. Joyce, who told me he would do what was fit in so tender a point. I can yet discern a coldness in him to admit me to any discourse with him. Thence to Westminster, to the Painted Chamber, and there met the two Joyces. Will in a very melancholy taking. After a little discourse I to the Lords’ House before they sat; and stood within it a good while, while the Duke of York came to me and spoke to me a good while about the new ship at Woolwich. Afterwards I spoke with my Lord Barkeley and my Lord Peterborough about it. And so staid without a good while, and saw my Lady Peters, an impudent jade, soliciting all the Lords on her behalf. And at last W. Joyce was called in; and by the consequences, and what my Lord Peterborough told me, I find that he did speak all he said to his disadvantage, and so was committed to the Black Rod: which is very hard, he doing what he did by the advice of my Lord Peters’ own steward. But the Sergeant of the Black Rod did direct one of his messengers to take him in custody, and so he was peaceably conducted to the Swan with two Necks, in Tuttle Street, to a handsome dining-room; and there was most civilly used, my uncle Fenner, and his brother Anthony, and some other friends being with him. But who would have thought that the fellow that I should have sworn could have spoken before all the world should in this be so daunted, as not to know what he said, and now to cry like a child. I protest, it is very strange to observe. I left them providing for his stay there to-night and getting a petition against tomorrow, and so away to Westminster Hall, and meeting Mr. Coventry, he took me to his chamber, with Sir William Hickeman, a member of their House, and a very civill gentleman. Here we dined very plentifully, and thence to White Hall to the Duke’s, where we all met, and after some discourse of the condition of the Fleete, in order to a Dutch warr, for that, I perceive, the Duke hath a mind it should come to, we away to the office, where we sat, and I took care to rise betimes, and so by water to Halfway House, talking all the way good discourse with Mr. Wayth, and there found my wife, who was gone with her mayd Besse to have a walk. But, Lord! how my jealous mind did make me suspect that she might have some appointment to meet somebody. But I found the poor souls coming away thence, so I took them back, and eat and drank, and then home, and after at the office a while, I home to supper and to bed. It was a sad sight, me thought, to-day to see my Lord Peters coming out of the House fall out with his lady (from whom he is parted) about this business; saying that she disgraced him. But she hath been a handsome woman, and is, it seems, not only a lewd woman, but very high-spirited.

35 Annotations

Todd Bernhardt   Link to this

"But who would have thought that the fellow that I should have sworn could have spoken before all the world should in this be so daunted, as not to know what he said, and now to cry like a child."

Actually, Sam, after your descriptions of the Bros. Joyce, *I* would have thought this. It's interesting that Sam did at least have high regard for William's ability to at least talk his way out of trouble, but it's situations like this where you find the true measure of a man (or woman), I suppose...

Also interesting to see the wheels of war finally beginning to turn for our boy. Something tells me work is about to get even busier.

Terry F   Link to this

W. Joyce "was committed to the Black Rod"

Ly. Petre versus Joyce & al. for arresting her.
Whereas William Joyce, appearing this Day upon Summons, hath, upon his own Confession, acknowledged that he procured Dame Elizabeth Petre, Wife of the Lord Petre, a Peer of this Realm, to be arrested, contrary to the Privilege of the Peerage of this Realm:
It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod attending this House, or his Deputy, shall take the said William Joyce into his Custody, and retain him in Safety, until the Pleasure of this House be further signified.

From: 'House of Lords Journal Volume 11: 4 April 1664', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 11: 1660-1666, pp. 591-92. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com... . Date accessed: 04 April 2007.

Terry F   Link to this

"the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rod

cape henry   Link to this

Tucked into the main narrative here is the second instance of the Duke of York consulting with Pepys about naval matters, specifically, a new ship under construction. This, coming in so public a forum, can't hurt Pepys' reputation, and in fact, he then speaks with Barkley and Peterborough about the same topic.

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

You do not X Lords and their entourage, they have the last word, not unlike the Army, better know thy rights, In this case the LADY was not popular, with her peers, note the members of the house were excused when this case appeared before the benches.

Mary   Link to this

Lady P. "very high-spirited"

By contrast with its modern usage, this means arrogant, proud etc. Pepys doesn't approve of her attitude.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...walked to my Lord Sandwich's; and there spoke with him about W. Joyce, who told me he would do what was fit in so tender a point. I can yet discern a coldness in him to admit me to any discourse with him. Thence to Westminster, to the Painted Chamber, and there met the two Joyces. Will in a very melancholy taking."

"So the only way is once again to forment violent revolution and overthrow this fickle and wicked state, Tony?"

"Aye, Will. Injustice rears its privileged head yet again and rest assured there are still men in England of the ole trained bands who will...Ah, Cousin Samuel."

***

At last a little of the mobilization machinery seems to be starting up...And as they said to Czar Nicky, "mobilization means war"...

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"So, how goes your war planning?" Bess asks.

"Sir Will Penn talks steadily of Jamaica and his great doings of the '50s, but nothing to the day's purpose. Batten's trying to use the whole war crisis to get Wood's bid accepted over Sir William Warren's. Sir John snored emphatically...Which perhaps was the most positive contribution of the Board. Meanwhile our best battlefleet commander, Lord Sandwich, is diligently playing cards and hasn't even been told there's to be a war."

"Fools rush in...Where angels fear to tread..." she hums...

"Hmmn? What's that?"

"Just came to me, listening to you now."

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...saw my Lady Peters, an impudent jade, soliciting all the Lords on her behalf."

How does an impudent jade solicit all the Lords on her behalf against some poor nobody schnook of a tradesman?

Lady Peters in lewd costume; astonished but intrigued Lords in their seats...A few feebly attempting to argue for justice, are quickly silenced.

"If I may state my case, my Lords?" waves musicians in...

"Falling in debt again..." (Don't I know it...The one grim holdout, Lord Peters frowning...) "...never wanted to. What's a Lady to do? I caaaan't help it..."

"Poor finances are a shame...But I play as I may...I was born that way. Cannn't help it."

"Tradesmen cluster to me...Like moths around a flame. And if their wings burn...(tickles stern-eyed Lord who melts a bit...) "A Lady's not...to blame."

"Falling in debt again...Never wanted to. What's a Lady to do...I ccccaaan't help it."

Pedro   Link to this

And Holmes off the Ivory Coast...

"2 canoas came by our shipps side having Lymes and oranges and told us they had some gould and that they had some slaves ashore. But being afraid did not come on board"

(Ollard...Man of War)

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"Gentlemen..." Sam sighs at the other officers of the Board in counsel with the Duke of York at Whitehall... "This is like to be a disaster. The navy and the nation are totally unprepared for this war."

"Pepys..." Jamie shakes head... "You must understand..."

"The nation's so depressed...With the King's follies so obsessed...We really need distraction right away..."

All but Pepys nod...

"Life could be more witty...And this war could be pretty...if only it could be...What's the word?"

"Won?" Sam eyes the group...

"Exactly..." Coventry nods.

Duke, Penn, Batten, Minnes:

"No matter what you do on the war's stage...Keep it light, keep it bright...And win..."

Batten and Penn:

"Though there be murder, mayhem, and rape...They won't complain, there's no shame...If we win..."

Coventry:

"With all news sources censored, we keep it a show...Pepys, nobody really wants the litany of woe..."

All:

"And a happy ending will prop up our regime..."

"The last Dutch War didn't bomb...So we'll be safe from harm..."

"If we win, if we win, if we win..."

"But gentlemen...What if..."

A. De Araujo   Link to this

"the Duke hath a mind it should come to"
Methinks the Duke of York was given very nice presents by the Dutch quite a while ago, and now he is a war monger against them; well after the all they are competing for the very profitable slave trade.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"Your Grace, it's not that..." Sam notes the frowns of his happily singing fellow officers...Get with the program, you idiot... "I don't mean to suggest a lack of proper enthusiasm..."

"Pepys, it's perfectly natural to be concerned and I appreciate it...But our team of strategic planners coming in now are sure to put your worries to rest."

"Team, Your Grace? Who are they?"

"The Chairman...Cousin Rupert..."

Prince Rupert enters, beaming... "Keep it quick, keep it slick...And win..." Pats remaining fair curl and takes seat...

"Our own famed ship designer and builder...Commissioner Pett..."

Pett, a bit more nervous, nods to Pepys...hisses "This is mad..." loudly, dutifully... "I'm so glad...We will win..."

"Sir George Carteret, Downing, and this must truly reassure, you Pepys...Your good friend, Mr. Povy..."

All enter...Strategic team rising as group:

"We're cleverly creative and Your Grace will see...That no plan is lacking for our victory at sea..."

"And last..." the Duke frowns a bit...Dropping to a whisper..." And least..." normal voice... "My Lady Castlemaine..."

"Lady Castlemaine?..."

"Charlie insisted..."

"Keep it quick...Cause it costs (me)...And win..." she intones, frowning back at the Duke, as she joins the rest...


Brian   Link to this

"... he doing what he did by the advice of my Lord Peters' own steward . . . see my Lord Peters coming out of the House fall out with his lady (from whom he is parted) about this business; saying that she disgraced him."

My take on this is that Will Joyce got caught in the midst of a disintegrating marriage. The Lord's Steward (probably hating her Ladyship) told Will to go after her debts, and Will was foolish enough to take the advice.

Terry F   Link to this

"to Westminster, to the Painted Chamber"

Cf. 9 March 1659/60 annotation by Susanna and language hat
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1660/03/09/#c2822

Susanna's link should now be:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/church_state...

Terry F   Link to this

The Painted Chamber:

"Adjoining the old House of Lords, and separating it from the House of Commons, was the ancient building called the Painted Chamber. This was an apartment in the old Royal Palace, and was often used as a place of meeting for the Lords and Commons when they held a conference. The chamber was small. When, in consequence of increased accommodation being required in the House of Commons, the tapestry and wainscoting were taken down, it was discovered that the interior had been originally painted with single figures and historical subjects, arranged round the chamber in a succession of subjects in six bands, somewhat similar to the Bayeux tapestry. Careful drawings were made at the time by Mr. J. T. Smith for his book on Westminster, and they have since been engraved in the "Vetusta Monumenta," from drawings made in 1819 by Charles Stothard." http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com...

Inside view of the Painted Chamber as it was in the year 1800 before the old tapestry was removed:
Measured, drawn and engraved by J T Smith /.Mezzotint/ London. Published as the Act directs, by John Thomas Smith, N.o 36, Newman Street, Oxford Street dated 1806 http://www.heatons-of-tisbury.co.uk/Images/jtsm...

Terry F   Link to this

Lady Peters and Will Joyce

What a pair. What cards would they be in a deck?

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

wild card and a deuce, three of a kind [Three dukes] I doth think, trump up a spot on the carpet.

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

succoured:"...by the advice of my Lord Peters' own steward ..."

Bradford   Link to this

"who would have thought that the fellow that I should have sworn could have spoken before all the world should in this be so daunted":

Did Pepys think of Will Joyce when, years later, he himself was the fellow expected to speak before all the world undaunted, when challenged about his Catholic connections?

Pedro   Link to this

"well after the all they are competing for the very profitable slave trade."

It would be wrong to give the impression that the coming war is all about the slave trade. The Spanish and Portuguese have over a hundred years experience in this trade from the West African coast, and in the last 30 years the Dutch have ousted them from certain parts. But it is only since 1640 that there was any sizeable demand for slaves in the British Caribbean, and although the slave trade will become very profitable, there are other factors at the present time.

The Duke, Rupert and Coventry have money tied up in the English Royal Africa Company ("Guinea Company") whose main objective is gold in the Gambia. And any breaking of the Dutch monopolies in India and the East Indies could prove very profitable for the merchants.

Paul Dyson   Link to this

"the Duke hath a mind it should come to"

James, Duke of York, is eager in 1664 for war with the Dutch. Twenty-four years on as James II he will lose his throne to his nephew/son-in-law William of Orange, Stadtholder of Guelders, Holland, Zealand, Utrecht and Overijssel.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"Twenty-four years on as James II he will lose his throne to his nephew/son-in-law William of Orange, Stadtholder of Guelders, Holland, Zealand, Utrecht and Overijssel."

Kind of the Dutch to conquer England so mildly...

"'Ey! We was never conquered by the Dutch!"

Uh-huh. And if an English prince had invaded Holland backed by a popular revolt against the government and successfully taken the throne there? Ok, conquered by a Dutchman.

Guess the rule of history is don't invade England unless your name is William or Claudius.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

And of course the other is that any British regiment can capture Washington, D.C.

Pedro   Link to this

Another rule of history.

Don't invade Iraq unless your name is Genghis Khan.

Iraq enjoyed a century of peace and a renaissance that brought the region to a level of prosperity and cultural sophistication higher than it enjoyed before or after.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-weath...

Michael Robinson   Link to this

And the man who burned Washington (DC)

Admiral Sir George Cockburn, 10th Baronet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cockburn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Washington

language hat   Link to this

Herewith a reminder to keep current politics out of this venue. Thanks!

Jacqueline Gore   Link to this

I thought they were all talking 12th-19th century history, LH.

Jacqueline Gore   Link to this

My mistake, 1st-19th century history.

Pedro   Link to this

OK here is some politics from another venue at 5 o'clock the following morning...

The Sophia hoisted her colours to show that a sail had been sighted. Just short of Cape Three Points the newcomer came up to them. She proved to be the Relief six weeks out from England with a letter from Coventry.

Captain Holmes

This comes to you by the ship Relief freighted by the Royal Company. The whole business of it is to let you know that we were very well informed that there is a ship gone from Zeeland called the Walcheren which is the ship which was formally called the Goulden Lyon which is now taken down out of the stern to disguise her. The commander is called Jacob Johnson which is the same James Johnson, so I conceive it is the same mentioned in your instruction. I wish you good success and a happy return.

I am yours &c

W.C.

(Holmes had already taken the Goulden Lyon see...)

http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1664/03/28/#ann...

Australian Susan   Link to this

Although the Glorious Revolution of 1688 (which was gloriously reenacted in 1988 at Lyme)brought William to the throne, he only ruled as joint monarch with his wife, Mary as the famous Siamese twin monarch Williamandmary (until her death). William was also half English, but then the monarchy was already a hotch potch of nationalities: Hnerietta Maria was French, Anne was Danish adn Catherine Portugeuse (to name the current and two preceeding Queens). And James, D of Y married an Italian for his 2nd wife, producing another James who was thus related to several European Royal Houses.

Paul Dyson   Link to this

"The commander is called Jacob Johnson which is the same James Johnson"

And moving the history on towards more current times, Jacobus is the Latin form of James and those who wanted James II and his Stuart descendants to be Kings of England became known as the Jacobites. His son was the Old Pretender (1715 rebellion) and his grandson, Bonnie Prince Charlie, The Young Pretender (1745 rebellion ended at the battle of Culloden). Both (I think) have a memorial in St Peter's, Rome.

For a version of this period of English/Scottish history see the following site:

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Scotland-H...

Australian Susan   Link to this

Jacobites used to drink a toast to "the little black velvet gentleman", this being a reference to the mole whose molehill caused William's horse to stumble, throwing and killing him. They also used to drink a toast to "the King over the water"which referred to first James II, then James III[sic] , then Charles III[sic]. If they were in company when the loyal toast was to the ruling monarch, they would make sure they had a glass of water alongside their wine and move the wineglass over the water glass, to signify "over the water" when they drank the toast. My guess is most of these people were happy to be closet Jacobites, but would never have done any actual fighting! It was just all sooo romantic and nostaligic.

Australian Susan   Link to this

Sorry, *nostalgic* - my typing developed the hiccups.

Terry F   Link to this

"my Lady Peters, an impudent jade, soliciting all the Lords on her behalf."

Her shame was that she was arguing her case against Joyce herself, and had not another, sc., a "Solicitor," arguing her case for her. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitor

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