Friday 1 September 1665

Up, and to visit my Lady Pen and her daughter at the Ropeyarde where I did breakfast with them and sat chatting a good while. Then to my lodging at Mr. Shelden’s, where I met Captain Cocke and eat a little bit of dinner, and with him to Greenwich by water, having good discourse with him by the way. After being at Greenwich a little while, I to London, to my house, there put many more things in order for my totall remove, sending away my girle Susan and other goods down to Woolwich, and I by water to the Duke of Albemarle, and thence home late by water.

At the Duke of Albemarle’s I overheard some examinations of the late plot that is discoursed of and a great deale of do there is about it. Among other discourses, I heard read, in the presence of the Duke, an examination and discourse of Sir Philip Howard’s, with one of the plotting party. In many places these words being, “Then,” said Sir P. Howard, “if you so come over to the King, and be faithfull to him, you shall be maintained, and be set up with a horse and armes,” and I know not what. And then said such a one, “Yes, I will be true to the King.” “But, damn me,” said Sir Philip, “will you so and so?” And thus I believe twelve times Sir P. Howard answered him a “damn me,” which was a fine way of rhetorique to persuade a Quaker or Anabaptist from his persuasion. And this was read in the hearing of Sir P. Howard, before the Duke and twenty more officers, and they make sport of it, only without any reproach, or he being anything ashamed of it!1 But it ended, I remember, at last, “But such a one (the plotter) did at last bid them remember that he had not told them what King he would be faithfull to.”

25 Annotations

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"my Lady Pen and her daughter at the Ropeyarde"

Well, at the site: L&M say they stayed with the Ropemaker to Woolwich Yard, William Bodham, during the plague.

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

"And thus I believe twelve times Sir P. Howard answered him a “damn me,” which was a fine way of rhetorique to persuade a Quaker or Anabaptist from his persuasion."


I love when Samuel transcribes actual dialog of the day ... it brings that time so much closer.

CGS  •  Link

"...But, damn me,..."
Why the "me"?: curse , or condemning it be usually the other person.

damn, n
[f. prec. vb.
(The conjecture that, in sense 2, the word is the Hindí d{amac}m, dawm, an ancient copper coin, of which 1600 went to a rupee (see Yule), is ingenious, but has no basis in fact.)]

. The utterance of the word ‘damn’ as a profane imprecation.
1619 FLETCHER M. Thomas II. ii, Rack a maids tender ears, with dam's and Devils. 1719 DE FOE Crusoe (1850) II. 460 ‘What! he no hear you curse, swear, speak de great damn?’

damn, v.
[a. OF. dampne-r, damne-r, ad. L. damn{amac}re, dampn{amac}re, orig. to inflict damage or loss upon, to condemn, doom to punishment; taken early into F. in legal and theological use. Cf. Pr. dampnar, It. damnare.]

1. a. trans. To pronounce adverse judgement on, affirm to be guilty; to give judicial sentence against; = CONDEMN 1 (in part), 2. Obs.
1559 Mirr. Mag., Tresilian xvii, I poore Tresilyan..was dampned to the galowes. 1611 SPEED Hist. Gt. Brit. VI. xlviii. 168 Let the Edict be dambd to eternal silence.

b. To condemn to a particular penalty or fate; to doom; = CONDEMN 3, 6. Obs.

GrahamT  •  Link

"A fine way ... to persuade..."
I believe this is used in the ironic sense as in; "That's a fine way to behave" that my father used to say to me when I did something particularly stupid.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

At least one of the suspects had a sense of humor...Which King indeed?

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

re: irony/sarcasm

I dunno, Graham, I can't think of other instances in the Diary where Sam does this. I think he's pretty literal in his writing...

JWB  •  Link

Coup plotter denouement

Not so sure the man in any way joking- Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done...

JWB  •  Link

"...their so much celebrated third of September..." from Chancellor's speech

Sept 3 is anniversary of Battle of Worchester, Charles I's last.

Bradford  •  Link

On this one I side with Graham, Todd: Pepys is as much as saying, "What a stupid way to try to persuade a godly person to do what you want him to."

language hat  •  Link

I agree with Graham and Bradford: seems like obvious irony. Pepys doesn't use it often, but that doesn't mean he's incapable of it.

Mary  •  Link

Yes, that's irony. Irony is one of the standard rhetorical figures that make up a good part of Sam's classical education and I join in agreeing that he uses it quite deliberately (instinctively?) here.

Pedro  •  Link

Meanwhile with the Fleet…

“...In the evening the Hector came in to us from Dover with Captain Ferras, my son Sydney being left in Kent at Scotts Hall with my Lady Carteret.”

(Journal of Edward Montagu edited by Anderson)

Pedro  •  Link

And De Ruyter…

“During the night a heavy north westerly gale scattered the whole fleet, with the result that next morning 80 ships were missing. It lasted for 2 days and notwithstanding all his efforts, De Ruyter had only 48 ships with him on the 1/10 September. Still the tempest continued…”

Pedro  •  Link

And more of De Ruyter…

I think the above date should read August 31st /September 10th, De Ruyter being plus 10 days…

“At noon on the 11th (1st English ), 37 warships, 2 fire ships, 2 East Indiamen and 6 other merchants reached the north side of Dogger Bank and made an attempt to collect the other ships. The effort was not successful, although the south side of Dogger Bank was searched by the 2 squadrons into which the remaining ships had been divided. Only a few of the missing craft, among them De Vries’ ship and a few other war and food ships, joined De Ruyter on the evening of the 13th. De Vries reported that the English were giving chase and were not far away with at least 60 ships…”

(Life of Admiral De Ruyter by Blok)

Michael Robinson  •  Link

discourse of Sir Philip Howard’s, with one of the plotting party ... and they make sport of it, only without any reproach, or he being anything ashamed of it! But it ended, I remember, at last, “But such a one (the plotter) did at last bid them remember that he had not told them what King he would be faithfull to.”

Seems to me that SP's making the point that Howard is a utter fool and that the plotter(s) are just using the interrogation to make fun of him and the others -- an early instance of Guards Officers living up to, or down to, caricature?

Michael Robinson  •  Link

Spoiler -- The Substance of the Chancellor’s Speech:

‘Those unquiet, restless Spirits in their own Bowels,……

Domestic terrorism sponsored by foreigners, on the eve of an emotionally significant anniversary (Sept. 3 is the anniversary of Battle of Worchester per JWB above) always useful for gaining the sympathy of the legislature and obtaining a grant of additional oodles of cash for the ‘War effort.’

Samuel  •  Link

This bit amused me "sending away my girle Susan and other goods…".

dirk  •  Link

From the Carte Papers, Bodleian Library…

Sir Thomas Clifford to Sandwich

Written from: Harwich
Date: 1 September 1665

Reports his conference with the Duke of York, who had previously seen his despatches to Lord Arlington. "I found him," says the writer, "entirely satisfied not only with your Highness' designing part, but also with Sir Thomas Tiddiman's conduct of the whole affair at Bergen." From York he proceeded to the Court at Salisbury and found there also "a good impression & esteem of the whole action,... the greatness of the attempt, the bravery of the thing, and the good conduct in bringing off every ship, hath quite swallowed up the loss of our men & the repulse". Adds that his mission to Copenhagen gives him full powers under the Great Seal to "conclude with that King." ...

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"damn me"
I will be damned,or darned,werent the Anabaptists,Calvinists, who believed we were damned and saved only by the grace of God.

GrahamT  •  Link

Re: (God) Damn me.
As an expletive, it was/is blasphemous, even when euphemised by leaving off the "God". No religious person, whether Quaker, Anabaptist or Catholic would find that acceptable language. I suppose Sir Philip was trying to get a reaction out of the men and make them angry enough to recant their previous promises to be faithful to the King.
It appears to have worked in at least one case: “But such a one (the plotter) did at last bid them remember that he had not told them what King he would be faithfull to.”

Having recently read "The Plot Against Pepys", it appears that justice was often served by entrapping non-conformist suspects (including using torture and bribed witnesses) rather than investigating the truth of the matter.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"I heard read, in the presence of the Duke, an examination and discourse of Sir Philip Howard’s,"

L&M: West-country fanatics were alleged to have planned ti seize the Tower of London on 3 September -- the anniversary of Dunbar… , of the first Protectorate parliament and of Oliver Cromwell's death. Albemarle had arrested several leaders: the examination of one (1 September) is given in CSPD 1664-5, p. 545. See also ib., 1665-6, p. 366; Parl. Hist., IV, 325....

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

The Dogger Bank.

Highlights from

The Dogger Bank is an extensive isolated shoal in the North Sea, lying about 60 miles (100 km) off the northeastern coast of England. It rises 70 feet (20 metres) higher than the surrounding seafloor, is 160 miles (260 km) long and 60 miles wide at the 120-foot (35-metre) level, and reaches its shallowest point (50 feet [15 metres] below the sea surface) at its western end.

The bank is a huge moraine deposited at the southern limit of the last glaciation. For centuries it has been a well-known fishing ground.

The constant mixing of waters in the shallow sea basin provides a rich supply of nutrient salts upon which the lower forms of marine organisms — the basis of the sea’s food chain — depend. The resulting abundance of plant and animal plankton supports a varied and rich supply of commercially valuable fish, including sizable quantities of plaice, cod, haddock, turbot, dabs, and herring, and over the centuries led to Fishery Wars.

The major fishing countries are Norway, Denmark, the United Kingdom, and the Netherlands. These days a unique fisheries arrangement, the Common Fisheries Policy, has been adopted by members of the European Community establishing catch quotas each year for the various North Sea species beyond territorial sea limits.

The origin of the name is obscure, but the Dutch dogger (a trawling vessel) was formerly applied to two-masted ships employed in North Sea fishing and, by extension, to their crews (doggermen) and the fish taken (doggerfish).

The lines demarcating the international rights of Great Britain, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, and Norway to the North Sea intersect just north of the Dogger Bank; all but Norway have rights to the bank itself.

Few parts of the North Sea are more than 300 feet (90 metres) in depth. The floor dips to the north and is irregular. In the south, depths measure less than 120 feet (35 metres); many shallow, shifting banks, presumably of glacial origin, have been reworked by tidal currents. These present serious navigational hazards.

In contrast, the waters deepen in the Norwegian Trench, an unusual depression that runs parallel to the coast of southern Norway from north of Bergen around to Oslo. It is between 15 and 20 miles (20 to 30 km) wide and is some 1,000 feet (300 metres) deep in the vicinity of Bergen, reaching a maximum depth of about 2,300 feet (700 metres) in the Skagerrak.

There are also deep trenches in the western part of the North Sea, including Devils Hole off Edinburgh (where depths exceed 1,500 feet (450 metres)), and Silver Pit (nearly 320 feet (95 metres) deep) off the bay of The Wash.
These trenches may have been formed at the time of the last glaciation, when parts of the North Sea were free of ice, and rivers coming off the mainland could have eroded deep channels in the basin floor.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Charles, 2nd Earl of Norwich's and Gen. George, Lord Goring's sister, Lady Catherine Goring married Edward Scott of Scot's Hall and had several children, whose paternity her husband refused to acknowledge, on the grounds of her notorious infidelity (Prince Rupert was said to be her lover).

Mr. Scott belatedly acknowledged Lady Catherine Goring Scott's son, Thomas Scott, as his lawful son.

In 1663 this Thomas Scott married Caroline Carteret, daughter of our Sir George Carteret.

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