Thursday 7 November 1661

This morning came one Mr. Hill (sent by Mr. Hunt, the Instrument maker), to teach me to play on the Theorbo, but I do not like his play nor singing, and so I found a way to put him off. So to the office. And then to dinner, and got Mr. Pett the Commissioner to dinner with me, he and I alone, my wife not being well, and so after dinner parted. And I to Tom Trice, who in short shewed me a writt he had ready for my father, and I promised to answer it. So I went to Dr. Williams (who is now pretty well got up after his sickness), and after that to Mr. Moore to advise, and so returned home late on foot, with my mind cleared, though not satisfied. I met with letters at home from my Lord from Lisbone, which speak of his being well; and he tells me he had seen at the court there the day before he wrote this letter, the Juego de Toro. So fitted myself for bed.

Coming home I called at my uncle Fenner’s, who tells that Peg Kite now hath declared she will have the beggarly rogue the weaver, and so we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her.


8 Nov 2004, 5:08 a.m. - upper_left_hand_corner

Juego de Toro sounds Spanish, not Portuguese ... Am I correct in recollecting that in Portuguese bullfights the bull is not killed?

8 Nov 2004, 8:16 a.m. - Pedro.

Juego de Toro Spanish for bullfight? Tourada in Portuguese. For a description of the present day difference between Spanish and Portuguese bullfights see... http://www.travelnet.co.il/PORTUGAL/09-Bullfight.htm

8 Nov 2004, 10:53 a.m. - A. De Araujo

"Juego de toros" Nowadays "corrida de toros"in spanish of course; at the time Portugal had recovered her independence from Spain less than half century thence the costly alliance with England.

8 Nov 2004, 4:36 p.m. - Peter

Juego de toros? Juego de otros (if you ask a bull!)

8 Nov 2004, 9:51 p.m. - Nix

"sounds Spanish, not Portuguese" -- Yes, it does, but of course we don't know how far they have diverged over the past 340 years. It is also correct that in Portuguese bullfighting the bull is not killed. The bullfighter is called a "cavaleiro" -- i.e., horseman (caballero in Spanish, anglicized to cavalier) -- not a torero (literally bullfighter) or matador (literally killer). He participates on horseback, thrusting short-bladed lances into the bull's back. http://mundo-taurino.org/horses.html In modern Spanish, "juego" translates to English as "game" -- "corrida" means literally "running". BullFIGHT is an Anglicism. As I understand it, the Spanish/Portugues/Latin American view is that it is primarily a spectacle demonstrating skill and courage, rather than a contest or competition. (Anticipating objections, it's obvious that many in the English-speaking world would disagree with this characterization.)

8 Nov 2004, 10:27 p.m. - Pedro.

"letters at home from my Lord from Lisbone." Montagu would refer to the bullfight as "the Juego de Toro" because he can speak some Spanish and not Portuguese. Charles and his brother James also spoke Spanish.Charlie would try to converse with his future wife in Spanish.

8 Nov 2004, 10:58 p.m. - David A. Smith

"shewed me a writt he had ready for my father, I promised to answer" Quite a bit of civility being shown here on both sides of this impenetrable financial dispute. I wonder if this is because each is an agent for someone else (Sam for his dad's estate, Trice for his dad's widow), because neither is really sure of the facts, because they're social acquaintanances/ perhaps friends, or some mixture of all?

9 Nov 2004, 1:52 a.m. - dirk

"in Portuguese bullfighting the bull is not killed" re - Nix I Think this should be "not killed in the ring". Because bulls that have participated in a bullfight and survived, have become a danger to men. They have learned that they can successfully fight a human being, and how to do it. In Spain such bulls are killed behind the scene immediately after the fight. I suspect the same happens in Portugal.

9 Nov 2004, 3:17 a.m. - vicente

Not at the end, but before, getting to the sight of bed "... So fitted myself for bed ..." such a nice turn of words coming from one that has seen many a gent, that has been fitted for the the streets. Ah! then he remembers that dreaded lass should take a hike with that dastardly beggarly rogue the weaver.

9 Nov 2004, 4:27 a.m. - Andrew Hamilton

Peg Kite now hath declared she will have the beggarly rogue the weaver, and so we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her. Anyone know the story here? Anent Portuguese bullfights. In Setubal I have seen the boldest lads of the town wrestle the bull (weakened by the Portuguese version of Picadores -- elegant horsemen with lances) to the ground. The bull was not killed. There was no matador. It was a rather civic event.

9 Nov 2004, 5:40 a.m. - dirk

bullfights In the 17th c bullfights, in Spain as well as in Portugal, were still a game for the well to do - to prove their courage and agility - where the rules weren't really fixed and where there was room for improvisation. (A century later Goya will make a series of etchings about the subject, showing how it was done.) It was not yet the well regulated mass event of today.

9 Nov 2004, 3:04 p.m. - Nix

The killing of the bulls -- True, I imagine, that the bulls are killed after the fight. They are raised for beef, after all.

9 Nov 2004, 4:40 p.m. - Nix

The last word on the "Juego de Toro" -- http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4044&n=3

9 Nov 2004, 6:03 p.m. - Pedro.

Last word, plus one. Zapatero has not noticed that somewhere in Spain, (Ribatejo in Portugal), some humans are actually are being used to selectively breed these horrible bulls for courage and strength, instead of for beef!

9 Nov 2004, 7:54 p.m. - vicente

Man and 'is pleasures : there be the Bedlam for some, then there be Cockfighting, then there be Bull baiting with that famous dog 'John Bull' then there be Bare [bear] baiting either at hide park or in the Baiting ring [please bring ye own [bait] bread and 'it' ] of course then there be hounds for a little exercise of chasing Rudyard. Oh ! wot fun. [note the breeds of dogs that be named after the games played] for a load of bull try the bear baiting arenas in London town at this date. "...The Puritans endeavoured to put an end to animal-baiting, although Macaulay sarcastically suggested that this was not because it gave pain to the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators. ..." http://54.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BE/BEAR_BAITING_and_BULL_BAITING.htm ban?[USA] Baiting. '...All but ten states have banned the use of bait to lure bears, because it is considered unfair by hunters and non-hunters alike. Unfortunately, the practice remains legal in Maine. Bear baiters litter..." http://www.hsus.org/ace/19970 In 1656 the local court ordered that Thame’s market cross should be properly equipped with the following : a pillory (for human punishment): a tumbrill (a two wheeled cart); a bushel (an eight gallon container used as a standard measure of volume for corn and other commodities): a collar and rope for bull baiting; http://www.thamehistory.net/topics/Baiting.htm more at Restoration London Liza Picard P 210 {shoe lane, bear garden Southwark}

9 Nov 2004, 8:46 p.m. - language hat

"of course we don't know how far they have diverged over the past 340 years” Of course we do — 340 years doesn’t take us back into prehistory! “Juego de toros” is Spanish; as Pedro points out, Spanish is perfectly natural here. I doubt many more Englishmen knew Portuguese in the 17th century than do now.

9 Nov 2004, 8:56 p.m. - language hat

"we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her" This is a regional expression meaning 'to have nothing to do with her.' OED citations ("make" def. 57): 1564 in F. J. Furnivall Child-marriages Diocese Chester 123, I will neither make nor medle with her. 1661 S. PEPYS Diary 7 Nov. II. 209 Pegg Kite hath now declared that she will have the beggarly rogue, the Weaver; and so we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her. 1662 LIVINGSTONE in W. K. Tweedie Select Biogr. I. 208 He thinks he will only preach against Poprie, and not make with other controversies. 1756 W. TOLDERVY Hist. Two Orphans I. 146 And so, Sir, pray don't meddle nor make with the maids. 1834 W. S. LANDOR Citation & Exam. Shakespere in Wks. (1853) II. 298/1 The business is a ticklish one: I like not overmuch to meddle and make therein. 1849 C. BRONTE Shirley II. x. 240 Moore may settle his own matters henceforward for me; I’ll neither meddle nor make with them further. 1887 J. SERVICE Dr. Duguid 286 Daur to mak or mell with the literal meaning thereof. 1895 T. PINNOCK Black Country Ann. in Eng. Dial. Dict. s.v., I wo’ meddle or mak’ in yo’r affairs. 1953 M. TRAYNOR Eng. Dial. Donegal 183 Not to meddle nor make with, not to interfere with.

10 Nov 2004, 2:57 a.m. - dirk

Bullfighting The etchings by Goya I referred to above: Goya's "Tauromaquia": http://web.archive.org/web/20041101001537/http://www.toroszgz.org/Exposicion/goya/la_tauromaquia_de_francisco_de_g.htm or (better pics, but in Spanish): http://web.archive.org/web/20041025083011/http://www.toroszgz.org/Exposicion/goya/goyaytorri.htm This one very similar to bull baiting... http://www.toroszgz.org/Exposicion/goya/images/g233.gif [First two links replaced with archive.org versions, 25 Jul 2014. P.G.]

10 Nov 2004, 11:11 p.m. - IronRoads

Regarding vicente's comment on USA state laws banning bear baiting: I believe this is in reference, not to the game of tormenting bears, but to the practice of hunting them with the aid of enticing baits. A common bait is bacon grease (translation: back rasher drippings) soaked into a rotting, old log. Not terribly sporting, really, but the pelts are wonderful.

11 Nov 2004, 3:21 a.m. - vicente

Bait : USA:"... Each fall, trophy hunters-mostly from out of state-kill more than 4,000 black bears in Maine using these unfair hunting methods, while most bear hunting states require skilled hunters to stalk the bears…” http://www.hsus.org/ace/19970 Bait: 3 areas of meaning.A) to have a bite to eat. archaic/slang B) to persecute with malicious attacks, to harrass as done by gamesters, Bullies and Officaldom to elicite a confession,to effect negative reactions, to a lessor extent harras,entice, lure into the trap set, or one that be held in custody of chained down to be biten or torn to shreds [ by one of the Bull Mastiffs ][prodding with a rod].[popular with the crowds in the 15-18C merry olde England) The Lure[Bait], to a hook,trap the unsuspecting, using poisonous material. Bait a hook[-er, common law technique]

12 Nov 2004, 5:48 p.m. - Jenny Doughty

IronRoads - that's correct. We've just had a referendum here in Maine, where a proposal to ban bear baiting in the way you describe was put to the vote. It didn't pass, so it can still be done. Here, it does mean laying bait to tempt the bears to come and eat in a particular place.

19 Nov 2004, 1:48 a.m. - Todd Bernhardt

Bait and switch (on the Internet) On the subject of bear-baiting, and hunting in the age of the Internet, comes this report from the front: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/17/virtual_hunting/ Just the other day I shot an elephant in my pajamas. What he was doing in my ... aw, forget it.

19 Mar 2005, 9:53 p.m. - Pedro

Sandwich's accout of the Juego de Toro. "After 3 or 4 bulls were tired and killed by the footmen then was another let out and the Conde de Sarzedas came in upon a fine well ranged horse very richly equipped, having 74 lackeys came in before his horse, half in red liveries with silver lace and half in green with silver lace." Ollard says that Sandwich reveals himself more of a fasion reporter than a sports correspondent. Cromwell's Earl, Richard Ollard.

24 Apr 2014, 4:53 a.m. - Terry Foreman

"Peg Kite now hath declared she will have the beggarly rogue the weaver, and so we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her. / Anyone know the story here?" They are long gone.

15 Sep 2014, 5:43 p.m. - Bill

"we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her" Why do you meddle or make with him? Pourquoi vous prenez à lui? ---A short dictionary English and French. G. Miège, 1684.

6 Nov 2014, 5:18 p.m. - arby

Maine again voted down a bear baiting ban two days ago. Doughnuts seem to be the favored bait.

7 Nov 2014, 10:30 a.m. - Sasha Clarkson

"Mr. Pett the Commissioner to dinner with me, he and I alone, my wife not being well" This is interesting in that it perhaps helps us to read between the lines of the diary. Elizabeth's absence is specifically mentioned in today's diary; normally her presence might well have been taken for granted and therefore not have been noted.

8 Nov 2014, 2:59 a.m. - Tim

Yes, Mrs P may have been at many of these meetings, just silent and unrecorded. Sam seems to be quite skilled on the theorbo - enough to tell a bad teacher, at any rate

8 Nov 2014, 5:14 p.m. - Gerald Berg

In the film The Great Train Robbery there was a fantastic scene with ringside bets being placed on how long it would take a terrier to kill a set amount of rats. That dog wasted no time! Grab it by the neck, shake vigorously till it snaps and move on. The film Paint Your Wagon had a sign announcing an upcoming ringside event of a bull versus bear fight. Unfortunately (or fortunate) you don't get to fully appreciate the battle royale. It also has a most edifying scene of Clint Eastwood trying to sing a song. He loses.

20 Oct 2017, 10:52 p.m. - Terry Foreman

Bear-baiting now worldwide In North America Bear-baiting is currently only known to occur publicly in South Carolina. Public bear baiting competitions are held in Spartanburg, Hickory Grove, and Travelers Rest Backyard events are reportedly held throughout the rural areas of northwest South Carolina during much of the year.[31] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear-baiting

20 Oct 2017, 10:59 p.m. - Terry Foreman

"Peg Kite now hath declared she will have the beggarly rogue the weaver, and so we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her. / Anyone know the story here?" Cf. https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1661/12/11/ and https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1661/12/11/#c532227