Friday 13 May 1664

Up before three o’clock, and a little after upon the water, it being very light as at noon, and a bright sunrising; but by and by a rainbow appeared, the first that ever in a morning I saw, and then it fell a-raining a little, but held up again, and I to Woolwich, where before all the men came to work I with Mr. Deane spent two hours upon the new ship, informing myself in the names and natures of many parts of her to my great content, and so back again, without doing any thing else, and after shifting myself away to Westminster, looking after Mr. Maes’s business and others. In the Painted Chamber I heard a fine conference between some of the two Houses upon the Bill for Conventicles. The Lords would be freed from having their houses searched by any but the Lord Lieutenant of the County; and upon being found guilty, to be tried only by their peers; and thirdly, would have it added, that whereas the Bill says, “That that, among other things, shall be a conventicle wherein any such meeting is found doing any thing contrary to the Liturgy of the Church of England,” they would have it added, “or practice.” The Commons to the Lords said, that they knew not what might hereafter be found out which might be called the practice of the Church of England; for there are many things may be said to be the practice of the Church, which were never established by any law, either common, statute, or canon; as singing of psalms, binding up prayers at the end of the Bible, and praying extempore before and after sermon: and though these are things indifferent, yet things for aught they at present know may be started, which may be said to be the practice of the Church which would not be fit to allow. For the Lords’ priviledges, Mr. Walter told them how tender their predecessors had been of the priviledges of the Lords; but, however, where the peace of the kingdom stands in competition with them, they apprehend those priviledges must give place. He told them that he thought, if they should owne all to be the priviledges of the Lords which might be demanded, they should be led like the man (who granted leave to his neighbour to pull off his horse’s tail, meaning that he could not do it at once) that hair by hair had his horse’s tail pulled off indeed: so the Commons, by granting one thing after another, might be so served by the Lords. Mr. Vaughan, whom I could not to my grief perfectly hear, did say, if that they should be obliged in this manner to, exempt the Lords from every thing, it would in time come to pass that whatever (be [it] never so great) should be voted by the Commons as a thing penall for a commoner, the contrary should be thought a priviledge to the Lords: that also in this business, the work of a conventicle being but the work of an hour, the cause of a search would be over before a Lord Lieutenant, who may be many miles off, can be sent for; and that all this dispute is but about 100l.; for it is said in the Act, that it shall be banishment or payment of 100l.. I thereupon heard the Duke of Lenox say, that there might be Lords who could not always be ready to lose 100l., or some such thing: They broke up without coming to any end in it. There was also in the Commons’ House a great quarrel about Mr. Prin, and it was believed that he should have been sent to the Towre, for adding something to a Bill (after it was ordered to be engrossed) of his own head — a Bill for measures for wine and other things of that sort, and a Bill of his owne bringing in; but it appeared he could not mean any hurt in it. But, however, the King was fain to write in his behalf, and all was passed over. But it is worth my remembrance, that I saw old Ryly the Herald, and his son; and spoke to his son, who told me in very bad words concerning Mr. Prin, that the King had given him an office of keeping the Records; but that he never comes thither, nor had been there these six months: so that I perceive they expect to get his imployment from him. Thus every body is liable to be envied and supplanted. At noon over to the Leg, where Sir G. Ascue, Sir Robt. Parkhurst and Sir W. Pen dined. A good dinner and merry. Thence to White Hall walking up and down a great while, but the Council not meeting soon enough I went homeward, calling upon my cozen Roger Pepys, with whom I talked and heard so much from him of his desire that I would see my brother’s debts paid, and things still of that nature tending to my parting with what I get with pain to serve others’ expenses that I was cruelly vexed. Thence to Sir R. Bernard, and there heard something of Pigott’s delay of paying our money, that that also vexed me mightily. So home and there met with a letter from my cozen Scott, which tells me that he is resolved to meddle no more with our business, of administering for my father, which altogether makes me almost distracted to think of the trouble that I am like to meet with by other folks’ business more than ever I hope to have by my owne. So with great trouble of mind to bed.

22 Annotations

Terry F   Link to this

"In the Painted Chamber I heard a fine conference between some of the two Houses upon the Bill for Conventicles. "

"the Painted Chamber "
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1664/04/04/#c10...

Pepys's report of this conference may be the only one there is, since it took place in between the Houses of Parliament and is recorded in the Journal of neither.

Terry F   Link to this

"There was also in the Commons' House a great quarrel about Mr. Prin, and it was believed that he should ave been sent to the Towre"

----
Improper Alteration of a Bill.

Sir Edward Walpoole reports from the Committee appointed to examine the Abuse in altering the Bill against Vintners, and Retailers of Ale and Beer, That the Committee had examined the Matter, and heard Mr. Pryn; and did find, the Bill, after it was committed, was altered in several Particulars; and a Bill, new-writ, brought to the Committee, differing from the Bill committed.

And the Matter being thereupon debated;

Mr. Pryn being in his Place, and acknowledging his Error and Mistake in altering the Bill; and professing, That he did not do it out of any ill Intent, but to rectify some Matters mistaken in it, and make the Bill agree with the Sense of the House upon Debate of the Bill when it was committed, (fn. [a]) and that the Committee were acquainted therewith; and craving the Pardon of the House for his Error and Mistake in this Matter;

And being withdrawn; and the Matter debated;

It was Resolved, That Mr. Pryn be called into his Place; and be reprehended for his Error by Mr. Speaker: and have the Pardon of the House.

And Mr. Pryn being called in; Mr. Speaker did acquaint him, That the House was very sensible of this great Mistake, in so antient and knowing a Member, to break so essential an Order of the House, as to alter and interline a Bill after Commitment: But the House had considered of his Answer and Submission; and were content to remit the Offence.

Mr. Pryn did again acknowledge his Error; and returned Thanks to the House for their great Favour towards him.

From: 'House of Commons Journal Volume 8: 13 May 1664', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 8: 1660-1667 (1802), pp. 563-64. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com.... Date accessed: 12 May 2007.

------------
Modern Times, and we have a 343-year old secularized Sacrament of Penance as it is still practiced for the tabloids: The efficacious apology as, in effect, the Confession of fault following regret, if not exactly Contrition; followed by rehab, aka penance (more anciently Satisfaction). What might Pryn have done for rehab? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_of_Penan...

Michael Robinson   Link to this

informing myself in the names and natures of many parts of her

To-day we have naming of parts. Yesterday,
We had daily cleaning. And to-morrow morning,
We shall have what to do after firing. But to-day,
To-day we have naming of parts. Japonica
Glistens like coral in all of the neighboring gardens,
And to-day we have naming of parts.

This is the lower sling swivel. And this
Is the upper sling swivel, whose use you will see,
When you are given your slings. And this is the piling swivel,
Which in your case you have not got. The branches
Hold in the gardens their silent, eloquent gestures,
Which in our case we have not got.

Henry Reed
for full text see:-
http://www.solearabiantree.net/namingofparts/na...

Pedro   Link to this

Back on the 27/5/1663 Sam said...

"Here I met with my cozen Roger Pepys,... so they have set upon four bills to dispatch: the first of which is, he says, too devilish a severe act against conventicles; so beyond all moderation, that he is afeard it will ruin all: telling me that it is matter of the greatest grief to him in the world, that he should be put upon this trust of being a Parliament-man, because he says nothing is done, that he can see, out of any truth and sincerity, but mere envy and design.

http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1663/05/27/

Terry F   Link to this

"nothing is done...out of any truth and sincerity, but mere envy and design."

I am shocked, shocked to hear that interest, faction and, well, politics prevail in Parliament!

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

The Catholique Lords be protecting their hides along with their staff of supporters, it be good as long as nobody upsets the Butler, or the milkmaid.

As for the Masses [not Catholic], they have to fend for themselves as their houses of meeting be in the publick eye, unlike many of the Lordly Catholick ones.
This seems to me like a run by the heavenly Laudly ones to get controll of the man in the street and get even with some of powerfull Catholick leaning Barons.

Samuells ref:Conference agreed to.
Mr. Seymour reports from the Lords, That they had consented to a present Conference with this House, in the Painted Chamber, upon the Amendments to the Bill against Conventicles.
Sayer's, &c. Nat.

From: 'House of Commons Journal Volume 8: 13 May 1664', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 8: 1660-1667
More on subject at both seats of power soon.

cape henry   Link to this

"and there heard something of Pigott's delay of paying our money, that that also vexed me mightily." To refresh memories, Pigott was a party to the complicated Trice settlement in this manner: "I am to pay him by giving him leave to buy about 40l. worth of Piggott's land and to strike off so much of Piggott's debt, and the other to give him bond to pay him in 12 months after without interest, only giving him a power to buy more land of Piggott and paying him that way as he did for the other, which I am well enough contented with, or at least to take the land at that price and give him the money." (27 Oct 63)

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"So with great trouble of mind to bed."

"Sam?"

"Hmmn? What? Why the devil did you wake me?"

"You were tossing and fretting...Kept on and on about '500Ls...Oh, 500Ls, lost'."

Oh...

"That has nothing to do with...?"

"Absolutely not. Elisabeth? I must have been thinking on that last mast contract."

"Uh-huh."

"Bess. I would have you refuse a thousand pounds. 1500Ls." airy wave...

"What about 2000L?"

"Ummn?"...Cough...

"Just kidding..."

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"For the Lords' priviledges, Mr. Walter told them how tender their predecessors had been of the priviledges of the Lords; but, however, where the peace of the kingdom stands in competition with them, they apprehend those priviledges must give place."

Absolutism marches on... It would or will be interesting to hear Coventry's opinion.

Just a bit too soon in history for the Commons to demand that the Lords' priviledges er, privileges...be extended to all.

Michael Robinson   Link to this

but that he never comes thither, nor had been there these six months:

An observation quite unfair to Prynne; he prepared the following for the press prior to his appointment:-

An exact abridgement of the records in the Tover of London, from the reign of King Edward the Second, unto King Richard the Third, of all the Parliaments holden in each kings reign, and the several Acts in every Parliament: together with the names and titles of all the dukes, marquesses, earls, viscounts, and barons, summoned to every of the said Parliaments. Collected by Sir Robert Cotton Knight and baronet. Revised, rectified in sundry mistakes, and supplied with a preface, marginal notes, several omissions, and exact tables, both of the special matters, great officers speakers, nobles, and other persons therein conteined. By William Prynne Esquire, a bencher of Lincolns Inne.
London : printed for William Leake stationer, at the Crown in Fleetstreet, between the two Temple Gates, 1657.
[34], 204, 281-444, 449-483, [1], 533-716, [144] p.; 2⁰.
There is a copy in the Pepysian Library at Magdalene

And saw to the press in the first four years:-

The first [Second, Third Forth] part of a brief register, kalendar and survey of the several kinds, forms of all parliamentary vvrits: comprising in 3. sections, all writs, forms of summons to great councils, parliaments, convocations in the Tower, from the 5th of King John (1203) till 23 Edw 4. (1483) to all sorts of spiritual and temporal Lords, greatmen (members of,) and the Kings counsil (assistants to) the House of Lords: with other rare writs,
London: 1659,60,62,64.
Approximately 2,400 pages of the Parliamentary records stored in the Tower, with indexes etc.

The works remained standard for generations and are cited occasionally today.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

Perhaps Prynne made the fatal mistake Sam never would of choosing to do all the work outside a noisy, bothersome office and rarely appearing to keep a watch on daily events and have his face seen.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

pressing cousin Roger, lazy Pigott, dismissive cousin Scott...I would imagine that 500Ls offer is looking better and better.

Andrew Hamilton   Link to this

Here's what makes Sam so lively for me to read. In a very long entry he records his morning zest, his ardent curiosity about ships and Parliamentary debates, his observations on politics, his merry dinner and his bad financial news in the evening in such a way that I think, this is just as he experienced the day, with all its ups and downs. Nothing of the evening woes crowds out the morning fun or the detailed report on a debate. To keep all these different emotions and experiences of a long day sharp and distinct in his memory until he has time to set them all down and, in effect, relive each, is quite a feat.

"a bright sunrising; but by and by a rainbow appeared, the first that ever in a morning I saw"

"informing myself in the names and natures of many parts of her to my great content,"

"In the Painted Chamber I heard a fine conference" (pages of description)

"But it is worth my remembrance, that I saw old Ryly the Herald, and his son .... I perceive they expect to get [Prin's] imployment from him. Thus every body is liable to be envied and supplanted."

"A good dinner and merry."

"which altogether makes me almost distracted to think of the trouble that I am like to meet with ...So with great trouble of mind to bed."

pk   Link to this

Does anybody know how he woke himself for his early (3am) start? It was clearly a pre-arranged meeting at the shipyard. If a servant woke him, who woke the servant?

Bradford   Link to this

"Thus every body is liable to be envied and supplanted."

And envied and supplanted in their term, ad infinitem.

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

Samuells says "...the Bill for Conventicles..."
CI says against;

if ye be 16 or older and ye be gathering in a place of religion held by those that failed to bend their knee and hold the correct book of worship, cough up 5 quid on the first offence.

From: 'Charles II, 1664: An Act to prevent and suppresse seditious Conventicles
The said Act in force.; Persons Sixteen Years old and upwards assembling under Colour of Religion; Two Justices or the Chief Magistrate to record Offence.; Such Record to be a Conviction.; Imprisonment, unless Fine not exceeding £5 paid.
.', Statutes of the Realm: volume 5: 1628-80 (1819), pp. 516-20. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com...
. Date accessed: 14 May 2007.

Charles II, 1664: An Act to prevent and suppresse seditious ...
... sue for the same in any of the Kings Courts of Record by Bill Plaint Action of ... to
dissolve or prevent Conventicles; and to take Persons assembled into Custody. ...
Statutes of the Realm: volume 5 (1819)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com...

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

So thee be a working apprentice lad and have only a few far[h]tings in thy purse, wot then?

Paul Dyson   Link to this

"Thus every body is liable to be envied and supplanted."

"Big fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em
Little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitem"

Pedro   Link to this

Long entries.

Gosh what would old Grumpy Fred make of that? I'm up the pub for one last drink just in case...

Andrew Hamilton   Link to this

Long entry alert

"conventicle"

Sam gets two mentions in OED under definition 4 b:

b. spec. in Eng. Hist. A meeting of (Protestant) Nonconformists or Dissenters from the Church of England for religious worship, during the period when such meetings were prohibited by the law.
This specific application gradually became distinct after 1593, and may be said to have been recognized by the 'Conventicle Act' of 1664; for although the word there occurs in constant conjunction with assembly and meeting, and always with qualification, it was entitled 'An Act to prevent and suppress seditious conventicles', by which title it is cited in the Act of Toleration of 1689. The application to Nonconformist worship after its legalization or 'establishment' in 1689, and esp. after the repeal of the Conventicle Act in 1812, comes, according to circumstances, from a historical survival of the idea of illegality or from a living idea of schism or heresy.

1593 Act 35 Eliz. c. i. To+be present at any unlawful Assemblies, Conventicles or Meetings, under Colour or Pretence of any Exercise of Religion. 1631 High Commission Cases (Camden) 200 Mr. Viccars preacheth at Stamford and blesseth some and curseth others that doe not frequent his conventicles.

1663 Pepys Diary 27 May, The first [bill]+is, he [Roger Pepys] says, too devilish a severe act against conventicles. 1664 Act 16 Chas. II, c. 4 (Conventicle Act) Any Assembly Conventicle or Meeting under colour or pretence of any Exercise of Religion in other manner than is allowed by the Liturgy or practise of the Church of England.

1664 Pepys Diary 7 Aug., Came by several poor creatures carried by constables, for being at a conventicle. ... 1682 Dryden Medal 284 A Conventicle of gloomy sullen Saints. 1711 Act 10 Anne c. 6 (Occasional Conformity Act) Present at any Conventicle Assembly or Meeting+for the Exercise of Religion in other Manner than according to the Liturgy and Practice of the Church of England+at which Conventicle Assembly or Meeting there shall be Ten Persons or more assembled together over and besides those of the same Houshold. 1711 Addison Spect. No. 127 37, I wish it may not drive many ordinary Women into Meetings and Conventicles. ...

One can see what the Catholic peers feared.

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

Biggest problem be for the Society of Friends, they have no friends amongst the privileged ones, at least the Catholicks have many baronial buddies, like for example, Norfolk and his Arundul Castle and as for that chappy Bunyon, he will have to spend more time in the clink, at least he can write his epistle in piece [sic].

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

pk asks on Mon 14 May 2007, 03:56pm

Does anybody know how he woke himself for his early (3am) start?

A few possibilities, one it being a Navy establishment, the poor old salt who is kept for turning watch candle and the half-hour glass, is the one that sends the lad over to ring the Peeps bell, that be out side the connubial room.
There is no mention of a boot boy or valet to be involved in getting Samuell into his boots and clothes, tho the other day I got wind that Samuel was miffed as there be no one to tuck in his shirt and tie his boot laces.
But like many that are up with or before the Cockerell whom warns of the breaking dawn, Samuell has his own built in Clock.
[a case of push before shove]

an aside: I could and did get up on time inspite of being idle lout, as I was the bell boy once [5.45am], that had to get the other lazy bones out of their hammocks before the bad guys came and roustered the sleepy heads. All without benefit of an alarm clock, not available or watch, also not available, only the tower clock that struck the the quarterhours and hours.

Log in to post an annotation.

If you don't have an account, then register here.