Sunday 22 November 1663

(Lord’s day). Up pretty early, and having last night bespoke a coach, which failed me this morning, I walked as far as the Temple, and there took coach, and to my Lord’s lodgings, whom I found ready to go to chappell; but I coming, he begun, with a very serious countenance, to tell me that he had received my late letter, wherein first he took notice of my care of him and his honour, and did give me thanks for that part of it where I say that from my heart I believe the contrary of what I do there relate to be the discourse of others; but since I intended it not a reproach, but matter of information, and for him to make a judgment of it for his practice, it was necessary for me to tell him the persons of whom I have gathered the several particulars which I there insist on. I would have made excuses in it; but, seeing him so earnest in it, I found myself forced to it, and so did tell him Mr. Pierce; the chyrurgeon, in that of his Lordship’s living being discoursed of at Court; a mayd servant that- I kept, that lived at Chelsy school; and also Mr. Pickering, about the report touching the young woman; and also Mr. Hunt, in Axe Yard, near whom she lodged. I told him the whole city do discourse concerning his neglect of business; and so I many times asserting my dutifull intention in all this, and he owning his accepting of it as such. That that troubled me most in particular is, that he did there assert the civility of the people of the house, and the young gentlewoman, for whose reproach he was sorry. His saying that he was resolved how to live, and that though he was taking a house, meaning to live in another manner, yet it was not to please any people, or to stop report, but to please himself, though this I do believe he might say that he might not seem to me to be so much wrought upon by what I have writ; and lastly, and most of all, when I spoke of the tenderness that I have used in declaring this to him, there being nobody privy to it, he told me that I must give him leave to except one. I told him that possibly somebody might know of some thoughts of mine, I having borrowed some intelligence in this matter from them, but nobody could say they knew of the thing itself what I writ. This, I confess, however, do trouble me, for that he seemed to speak it as a quick retort, and it must sure be Will. Howe, who did not see anything of what I writ, though I told him indeed that I would write; but in this, I think, there is no great hurt. I find him, though he cannot but owne his opinion of my good intentions, and so, he did again and again profess it, that he is troubled in his mind at it; and I confess, I think I may have done myself an injury for his good, which, were it to do again, and that I believed he would take it no better, I think I should sit quietly without taking any notice of it, for I doubt there is no medium between his taking it very well or very ill. I could not forbear weeping before him at the latter end, which, since, I am ashamed of, though I cannot see what he can take it to proceed from but my tenderness and good will to him. After this discourse was ended, he began to talk very, cheerfully of other things, and I walked with him to White Hall, and we discoursed of the pictures in the gallery, which, it may be, he might do out of policy, that the boy might not see any, strangeness in him; but I rather think that his mind was somewhat eased, and hope that he will be to me as he was before. But, however, I doubt not when he sees that I follow my business, and become an honour to him, and not to be like to need him, or to be a burden to him, and rather able to serve him than to need him, and if he do continue to follow business, and so come to his right witts again, I do not doubt but he will then consider my faithfulnesse to him, and esteem me as he ought. At chappell I had room in the Privy Seale pew with other gentlemen, and there heard Dr. Killigrew, preach, but my mind was so, I know not whether troubled, or only full of thoughts of what had passed between my Lord and me that I could not mind it, nor can at this hour remember three words. The anthem was good after sermon, being the fifty-first psalme, made for five voices by one of Captain Cooke’s boys, a pretty boy. And they say there are four or five of them that can do as much. And here I first perceived that the King is a little musicall, and kept good time with his hand all along the anthem. Up into the gallery after sermon and there I met Creed. We saluted one another and spoke but not one word of what had passed yesterday between us, but told me he was forced to such a place to dinner and so we parted. Here I met Mr. Povy, who tells me how Tangier had like to have been betrayed, and that one of the King’s officers is come, to whom 8,000 pieces of eight were offered for his part. Hence I to the King’s Head ordinary, and there dined, good and much company, and a good dinner: most of their discourse was about hunting, in a dialect I understand very little. Thence by coach to our own church, and there my mind being yet unsettled I could mind nothing, and after sermon home and there told my wife what had passed, and thence to my office, where doing business only to keep my mind employed till late; and so home to supper, to prayers, and to bed.

39 Annotations

language hat   Link to this

A superb entry!

"a dialect I understand very little": Interesting to see that even then the common man was flummoxed by the specialized vocabulary of the hunting set.

"We saluted one another and spoke but not one word of what had passed yesterday between us": I had to read this a few times before realizing it would be much clearer if there were a comma before "but."

Bradford   Link to this

"for him to make a judgment of it for his practice, it was necessary for me to tell him the persons of whom I have gathered the several particulars which I there insist on"---Pepys should have seen this coming (and so should we), though hasn't he named lesser folk as his sources, so as not to implicate greater ones? Yet the maneuver makes his intelligence sound more like kitchen gossip, rather than that of acute and worthy observers. How shrewd of My Lord to ask if there is not one [underline] other person who knows Pepys's mind on this matter?

Still, the matter has turned out better than it might have, with another M'Lud. The question in such difficult cases is not whether one has the nerve to take the risk---sure you do, fired with the righteousness of your mission---but whether one has the savoir faire to deal with the consequences.

Terry F   Link to this

"The anthem was good after sermon, being the fifty-first psalme"

Expressing Pepys's fondest wishes:

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Ps-51.html

Clement   Link to this

An emotionally wringing experience for Sam, while Sandwich keeps his cool.
"(later) I do not doubt but he will then consider my faithfulnesse to him, and esteem me as he ought."--A comfortable long view to calm his nerves.
Psalm 51 is one the 'penitential psalms' of David, appealing for forgiveness after his adultery with Bathsheba, and causing the death of her husband.

Terry F   Link to this

language hat, a proper reading!

since, as L&M say, punctuation is largely editorial, let us accept it. BTW, their reading is "we saluted one another but spoke but not one word of what had passed yesterday between us" - not as clear as yours.

Jesse   Link to this

"it was necessary for me to tell him the persons of whom I have gathered the several particulars"

Perhaps it's just inexperience in not 'seeing it coming'. Not just in being asked to name sources but in the whole tenor of reply. How many of us at work have been in similar situations where attempting to communicate to management what's important to us is perceived, at best, like whining. It can take awhile to accept how often that's the case, see it coming, keep the peace and, alas, accept the consequences.

jeannine   Link to this

"and there my mind being yet unsettled I could mind nothing, and after sermon home and there told my wife what had passed,"
I personally found this the most stunning part of the entry. Up until now I never really got a sense of exactly how much Sam actually shared with Elizabeth. From this sentence I would get the feeling that she was totally aware of the Sandwich issue which I am sure weighed most heavily on Sam's mind. Others may want to offer their better informed insights here.
To me this establishes a deep level of trust in their relationship in the sense that Sam felt free to divulge his worries to Elizabeth and not fear that she would betray him.

Todd Bernhardt   Link to this

Pepys the junior partner

Sam really gets played by Montagu in this entry (which *is* superb, LH!) ... I'm a bit surprised that Sam hadn't anticipated these questions and techniques from him, but then again we're talking about a younger man who's still learning from men like Creed the tactics of politiques...

cumgranosalis   Link to this

Enough for a title:"...Here I met Mr. Povy, who tells me how Tangier had like to have been betrayed, and that one of the King's officers is come, to whom 8,000 pieces of eight were offered for his part...."

Michael L   Link to this

jeanine -- I agree, this is somewhat surprising. Given Sandwich's insistence on secrecy here, I find it especially interesting that Sam doesn't believe he's breaking any confidences to discuss the whole thing with his wife.

Paul Chapin   Link to this

"nobody could say they knew of the thing itself what I writ"
Sam is being less than honest with my Lord here, and with his diary as well, in saying that well, maybe Will Howe knew something about the letter, but nobody else. Recall 17 November: "I home and with Mr. Moore to my office, and there I read to him the letter I have wrote to send to my Lord."

Terry F   Link to this

"nobody could say they knew of the thing itself what I writ"

Is he also being less than honest with himself? Can he bear to admit to himself that he read what he writ to Mr. Moore? Or has he pursued the matter so relentlessly, with so many people, in so many ways that his memory's befogged?

JWB   Link to this

Tangerines

"Members of the garrison thought they might as well be in prison as sweating in a fortified city under perpetual siege from the Moroccans. A soldier who complained about never being paid was shot. Margaret Summerton, convicted of sedition and trying to raise rebellion in Tangier in 1663, was flogged in front of the assembled garrison before being thrown into the cells. She probably emerged to join other offenders who, after their whipping, were set to work without pay and in shackles on the defenses. They were officially enslaved."

"Lusty Beggars, Dissolute Women, Sorners, Gypsies, and Vagabonds for Virginia"
by Bruce P. Lenman

http://history.org/Foundation/journal/Spring05/...

Bergie   Link to this

language hat comments: "'We saluted one another and spoke but not one word of what had passed yesterday between us': I had to read this a few times before realizing it would be much clearer if there were a comma before 'but.'" I construed this as an archaic use of "but," as in, say, "We ate but little," so that a translation (admittedly clumsy) would be "We...spoke no more than zero words of what had passed..."

andy   Link to this

told my wife what had passed,

as you do in these circumstances - well, the edited version of what had passed, anyhow.

Bryan M   Link to this

"I find him, though he cannot but owne his opinion of my good intentions, and so, he did again and again profess it, that he is troubled in his mind at it; and I confess, I think I may have done myself an injury for his good, which, were it to do again, and that I believed he would take it no better, I think I should sit quietly without taking any notice of it, for I doubt there is no medium between his taking it very well or very ill."

For me, this is one of the key sentences in today's entry as Sam tries to make an assessment of his meeting with Lord S. In addition, the syntax reflects Sam's state of mind i.e. fairly tortured. My reading:

Though Lord S. cannot but admit my good intentions (and he did so repeatedly) I find him troubled by it [Sam's letter; his doubts about Sam's intentions?]. I may have done myself some harm here and, knowing how he reacted today, if the same situation arose again, I think I would be better off minding my own business because I believe it is still a very close thing between him taking it very well or very badly.

Sam is clearly a worried man, refering to his mental state three times:
"but my mind was so, I know not whether troubled, or only full of thoughts of what had passed between my Lord and me that I could not mind it, nor can at this hour remember three words... and there my mind being yet unsettled I could mind nothing, ... to my office, where doing business only to keep my mind employed till late."

I suspect we will not be hearing about Mr Hollyard and his clyster for a little while.

tel   Link to this

"in a dialect I understand very little"

It may simply have been that the men Sam was eavesdropping on came from another part of the country. Until the advent of radio last century, strong accents and strange words were the norm all over the country - except, perhaps, for the most educated. Even now, an excited Cumbrian farmer would have trouble being understood in, say, Hereford (only 200 miles away).

OzStu   Link to this

"...and having last night bespoke a coach, which failed me this morning.."
Booked a taxi that never turned up. Some things never change...

Bradford   Link to this

Pursuant to what Jesse and others mention, one asks: is Sandwich the sort of man who would seek redress on informants who spread falsehoods, or truths, about him?
To assuage one's self-assigned sense of duty, as Pepys has done, how many others might you injure who trusted in your discretion?
Here we reach the higher moral mathematics, where even Pepys's slide rule cannot assist with the computation.

cumgranosalis   Link to this

It still be a problem, People still say to me " wot yer 'ay" "...in a dialect I understand very little..."

jeannine   Link to this

I was curious as to how Sandwich's biographer's (Harris and Ollard) viewed the Letter of Reproof, so here's a summary from F.R. Harris (vol 1, pages 242-251). Both Ollard and Harris share similar view that the entire episode was blown far out of proportion to the reality of what was being gossiped about. Both also note that the episode reveals aspects of Sandwich's character vs. that of Sam's. Spoilers are noted!

Although Sam is convinced that Sandwich is having a relationship with Mrs. Becke, Harris reminds us that much of the time that Sandwich has been away from Court has been due to ill-health as well as the politics of the time. "He saw that the Court was being rent by faction, and in disgust he withdrew. He had undoubtedly great hopes as to the healing results of the Restoration, and it was to him a bitter disappointment that quarrels now divided his friends." Harris explains that "during the whole of this time Sandwich was in great doubt as to the security of his position....the issue of the settlement of religion had divided his friend Clarendon who represented moderation and his cousin Lord Manchester, who championed a variety of creed. Sandwich withdrew from situations where this hot topic was the source of debate, but while away from Court remained active in 'Committees concerning the Post-Office and wine licenses, and spoke upon a Bill for repairing the highways in his own country. He was also on the Committee regulating the Herring Fisheries, and reported on its work"... "Such small participation in politics only needed an occasional appearance in the House, and when not needed there Sandwich had continued in Chelsea". Also, Sandwich spent much time over the months "away" froun Court at his house, with his wife, family, etc. During this time the gossip spread, as Sam has recorded it over the past few months.

Harris then recounts today's entry and adds a few comments along the way about Sandwich's character vs. that of Sam's. As Sandwich is shown to question Sam today, Harris tells us that "Sandwich knew Pepys for somewhat of a busybody, and insisted here Pepys should give him leave to except one. This he said in the real Mountagu manner, 'speaking it as a quick retort'. His perception of the truth reduced poor Pepys to tears, for he had actually gossiped over the matter with Howe, and he feared 'no medium between my Lords' taking it very well of very ill'"

"But my Lord was in no mood to reveal his mind, not was he made of such metal as melted under a reproof. He talked cheerfully of other things; walked with Pepys to Whitehall, and there discoursed of the pictures in the gallery. Pepys was infinitely troubles, and in part abashed" .....As we see from today, this whole episode is causing Sam great anxiety about what to expect from Sandwich's reaction over time. "The key to all this doubt lay in the difference of character. Pepys was demonstrative as Sandwich was reticent. His manner was cold and abrupt, but the coldness covered a kind heart. And least of all would Sandwich open out upon such a subject. It was the very matter to make a Mountgu more reserved." [SPOILERS FROM NOW ON] "Sandwich took heed of the letter, but did not seek conversation on what was best ignored. He was not vindictive, nor did he behave in a mean or petty way. At times he was more guarded with his 'servants', and both Howe and Pepys were taught how far they might go. Sandwich, however, treated them kindly enough....."
"The whole story, which bears examination, gives an insight into Sandwich's character. During the relation the famous diary abounds in touches which reveal the man. His moods are well depicted; the lengthy fits of despondency; the choice of music which accords with his humour; the pretended indifference to men's opnions; the quick retort by which he could pierce a weak spot in Pepys's amour; the gratitude with which he received advice; the gruff manner in which he repelled effusive thanks; the quiet determination to avoid familiarity, are all chronicled. If Sandwich had dallied with Betty Becke, the girl certainly took no harm. Sandwich was still under forty years of age, and could well have flirted with a girl of eighteen. But he had none of the attributes of a rake; to judge him an immoral man upon such slender evidence seems unfair to one whom Evelyn particularly describes as 'chaste' and who was certainly one of the cleanest men at the Court of King Charles II."

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...it must sure be Will. Howe..."

Hmmn...

That is nice (and revealing) that Sam did share all with Bess...Hey, she told him all of Balty's rantings and demands.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...I found myself forced to it, and so did tell him Mr. Pierce; the chyrurgeon, in that of his Lordship's living being discoursed of at Court; a mayd servant that- I kept, that lived at Chelsy school; and also Mr. Pickering, about the report touching the young woman; and also Mr. Hunt, in Axe Yard, near whom she lodged."

Our hero...

Oh, well. Hopefully Ashwell will remain nameless and Dr. Pierce should be protected but Mr. Pickering and Mr. Hunt, I would worry for.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"I could not forbear weeping before him at the latter end, which, since, I am ashamed of, though I cannot see what he can take it to proceed from but my tenderness and good will to him."

Think I'd weep myself thinking how easily milord could remove one from one's beloved post and quash one like a bug. Suppose Sandwich is afraid Sam's gone to Lady Jem? Or that the letter might have been inspired by words from her to him? Given that he asks no direct questions with regards to her, probably not, but it could be he was referring to her, not Howe.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...esteem me as he ought."

A little prick there...Sam is getting fed up I think having to be so mindful of his increasingly reckless patron's moods and is beginning to see ahead to a life not limited by my lord cousin's favor.

Pedro   Link to this


"the entire episode was blown far out of proportion to the reality of what was being gossiped about."

Thanks Jeannine, although quoting the biographers Harris and Ollard, many other references to Sandwich seem to show how well he got on with a variety of people, and even Burnet, who slates nearly all the characters of this period, gives him a reasonable appraisement.

Sam has at times jumped to conclusions with little evidence to back his judgement. As well as the case with Pembleton, he has formed opinions of people such as Sir John Lawson, and officious poor man as any spaniel can be, and of Lord Windsor, a young Lord are not fit to do any service abroad.

(if this goes below Robert's post it does not in any way suggest that Sam is a little ****)

Glyn   Link to this

Pepys is doing an honest job as a political aid to an important politician, but that's an unimpressive list of people to provide.

We've previously suspected that Sandwich made advances (serious or nt serious depending on how much you believe Robert Gertz!) to Elizabeth when she was at Brampton this summer. If true, and it might not be, then that would add another layer to Sandwich's conversation with Pepys.

Glyn   Link to this

"After this discourse was ended, he began to talk very, cheerfully of other things"

He's deliberately changing the subject to lighter matters to help put Pepys at ease (which shows some consideration for him) and making sure that the meeting ends on a pleasant note, rather than sending him out of the room with a curse.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

With referrence to Sandwich and Bess, Glyn, it does raise the interesting question of how Bess reacted to the news that milord was running about with Betty from Chelsea. Spoiler...

To be honest there is some hard intelligence on the Sandwich matter later on in the Diary. I mention that now only because it leaves us with a scene in which Bess is anxious not to reveal milord's wooing-by-proxy yet having to hear that he has moved on to other more favorable ports and that Sam is dealing with what may be a far more risky business than he realizes. Curious if the story is true that she wouldn't tell Sam. One might think she'd worry about Sandwich suspecting she's told Sam and want to warn him. Fear of Sam's natural jealousy lousing up their lives? Or perhaps the tale was more her fantasy than real?

David A. Smith   Link to this

"not a reproach ... seeing him so earnest in it"
I largely concur with Bradford and Todd Bernhardt.
In this probing, Sandwich is finding out (a) whether Sam is reporting outside information, coloring it to suit, or merely projecting his own views, and (b) whether in fact Sam means his continued claims he is motivated by 'dutifull intention'. In asking the questions, Montagu is watching both Sam's left-brain (what facts offered?) and his right-brain (what temper and manner?) reactions -- all of which goes to the credibility of Sam's advice.
Is he past the crisis? See my next post.

David A. Smith   Link to this

"he began to talk very, cheerfully of other things"
This shows that Sam is safe, and in fact valued.
As others have noted, Montagu in this encounter is behaving in a controlled, mature, senior-to-junior way. He sweats his servant without revealing why or what for, and then when the interrogation is over, he demonstrably shifts the tone to show unconcern (signaling relief to Sam) and cheer (signaling friendship). All that is incredibly powerful in *emotionally* binding Sam to him.

Pedro   Link to this

"a dialect I understand very little"

Tally-Ho. The term dialect here would refer, as LH says, to the vocabulary of the closed hunting fraternity and not in the sense of an accent from another region.

http://nwhsa.redblackandgreen.net/hunting_terms...

cumgranosalis   Link to this

OED : [a. F. dialecte (16th c. in Hatz.-Darm.), or ad. L. dialectus, Gr....discourse, conversation, way of speaking, language of a country or district, f..... to discourse, converse, f...dia ..through, across +....to speak.]
1599 NASHE Lenten Stuffe (1599) 41 By corruption of speech they false dialect and missesound it.
1638 Penit. Conf. vii. (1657) 191 Such a dialect which neither Men nor Angels understand.
1663 BUTLER Hud. I. i. 93 A Babylonish Dialect, Which learned Pedants much affect.
fig.
1603 SHAKES. Meas. for M. I. ii. 188 In her youth There is a prone and speechlesse dialect, Such as moue men

2. a. One of the subordinate forms or varieties of a language arising from local peculiarities of vocabulary, pronunciation, and idiom.
(In relation to modern languages usually spec. A variety of speech differing from the standard or literary 'language'; a provincial method of speech, as in 'speakers of dialect'.) Also in a wider sense applied to a particular language in its relation to the family of languages to which it belongs.
1577
1641 RALEIGH Hist. World II. 496 The like changes are very familiar in the Aeolic Dialect.
1635 E. PAGITT Christianogr. 73 The Slavon tongue is of great extent: of it there be many Dialects, as the Russe, the Polish, the Bohemick, the Illyrian..and others
3. = DIALECTIC n.1 1. Obs.

1551 T. WILSON Logike (1580) 2b, Logike otherwise called Dialecte (for thei are bothe one) is an Arte to trie the corne from the chaffe.
1677 GALE Crt. Gentiles II IV. 223 We may draw forth the force of this Platonic Argument, in Plato's own dialect thus.
dialect as a verb Explained as: To speak a dialect.

1599 NASHE Lenten Stuffe 41 By corruption of speech they false dialect and misse-sound it. [Here false is a vb. meaning to 'falsify', and dialect a noun.

cumgranosalis   Link to this

'tis like listening to a bunch of bio-physists discussing their latest discovery. Not accents but the use of unfamiliar terms and words.
"...most of their discourse was about hunting, in a dialect I understand very little..."

Australian Susan   Link to this

So, "dialect" then is being used as we would use "jargon" ??

Mary   Link to this

Pepys' 'dialect' = modern jargon?

Well, only if you exclude the modern forms of jargon that involve what is often pretentious, fashionable but vacuous terminology. For all we know, these huntsmen were using the technical terms appropriate to their activity; obscure to Pepys but germane to their own pursuits.

Mary   Link to this

Pepys' 'dialect = modern jargon?

Not necessarily; only if you exclude the pretentious, fashionable but vacuous terminology that is often designated 'jargon' these days. These huntsmen may well have been using technical terminology that was obscure to Pepys but entirely germane to their own pursuits.

Peter   Link to this

Personally, I don't rule out the possibility that this has nothing to do with technical hunting terms and really has to do with the way they were speaking, be it accent or dialect. I once (about 20 yrs ago) attempted a conversation with someone who came just 30 - 40 miles from where I grew up.... and understood only about 50% of what he was saying.

Sasha Clarkson   Link to this

Unsurprising that Sam DID take the opportunity to drop Ned Pickering in the doo-doo. Sam has always been very loyal to his patron, especially in public. Ned had always been an embarrassment to the family, and his disloyalty to his kinsman shamed and disgusted Sam.

http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1663/11/09/

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