Saturday 4 August 1660

To White Hall, where I found my Lord gone with the King by water to dine at the Tower with Sir J. Robinson, Lieutenant. I found my Lady Jemimah1 at my Lord’s, with whom I staid and dined, all alone; after dinner to the Privy Seal Office, where I did business. So to a Committee of Parliament (Sir Hen[eage] Finch, Chairman), to give them an answer to an order of theirs, “that we could not give them any account of the Accounts of the Navy in the years 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, as they desire.” After that I went and bespoke some linen of Betty Lane in the Hall, and after that to the Trumpet, where I sat and talked with her, &c.

At night, it being very rainy, and it thundering and lightning exceedingly, I took coach at the Trumpet door, taking Monsieur L’Impertinent along with me as far as the Savoy, where he said he went to lie with Cary Dillon, and is still upon the mind of going (he and his whole family) to Ireland. Having set him down I made haste home, and in the courtyard, it being very dark, I heard a man inquire for my house, and having asked his business, he told me that my man William (who went this morning — out of town to meet his aunt Blackburne) was come home not very well to his mother, and so could not come home to-night. At which I was very sorry. I found my wife still in pain. To bed, having not time to write letters, and indeed having so many to write to all places that I have no heart to go about them.

Mrs. Shaw did die yesterday and her husband so sick that he is not like to live.

  1. Lady Jemima Montage, daughter of Lord Sandwich, previously described as Mrs. Jem.

40 Annotations

Paul Brewster   Link to this

where I sat and talked with her, &c.
In this case, I think the "&c" says it all

Glyn   Link to this

No it doesn't - read her biography! Sam was always very chivalrous to poor, little Jem.

"I heard a man inquire for my house" - Londoners hadn't yet heard of street numbering, and it must have been a nightmare trying to find somewhere in these narrow, winding streets. Also of course he's just moved in, so most people wouldn't have visited him yet.

Paul Brewster   Link to this

After that I went and bespoke some linen of Betty Lane in the Hall, and after that to the Trumpet, where I sat and talked with her, &c.
I think Betty Lane was the intended target of the "her" mentioned in the "&c" sentence, not "poor, little Jem".

gerry   Link to this

Per L&M Mrs. Shaw is Sarah, wife of Robert Shaw of Axe Yard (an Exchequer colleague), who was buried in St. Margaret's Westminster on 5 August. Her husband survived.

Eric Walla   Link to this

Finally, Jem returns to the stage ...

... although we still do not get much of an idea what relations they will have together now that they have all risen in the world.

Naturally Sam won't have the same duty to keep an eye out for Lady Jemimah's welfare, but I hope to see their friendship mature as we pass the decade together.

chip   Link to this

I'm with Paul B. regarding the &c. Not to ruin the plot, but this is the beginning of a beautiful thing for our dear Sam Pepys. We can only imagine what Pepys and Jem talked about dining alone. What's this about Butler lying with Cary Dillon? Pretty soon this page will be ready for prime time, with a pg17 rating...thanks, Gerry, I wondered who Mrs. Shaw was and what happened to her husband.

vincent   Link to this

to lie with is not the 21 st century version it being the Savoy and all:having no OED: I think it means a stayover:nothing more envigorating;

Mary   Link to this

The Savoy
probably still in use as a military hospital; see background.

Brian McMullen   Link to this

It is amazing that anyone could find anyplace in London. There are approximately 400,000 people in the 'metropolis' in the mid 17th century. With no postal scheme, winding narrow lanes, and having to search at night, how would the unknown person even be close to SP's house?

In Newton's biography the author, James Gleick, mentions the lack of a postal system by referring to Newton's method of 'addressing' a letter to the Secreatary of the Royal Society:

"Mr Henry Oldenburg at his house in the middle of the old PAlmail in St James Fields in Westminster" (p.75)

By the way, SP has a quote or two footnoted in the biography.

helena murphy   Link to this

Monsieur L'Impertinent and his family are probably of Irish extraction and
are repatriating to the mother country.Is is also possible that they are connected to James Butler, Duke of Ormond. The name Monsieur L'impertinent seems to express endearment but it may also imply that it's bearer had passed the interregnum in France or elsewhere on the continent with the royal court in exile. The Butler family first came to Ireland in the 12th century with Henry II, and were regarded as old English in Ireland.

J A Gioia   Link to this

Finding addresses

Pub signs - vivid, simple and large - were certainly an aid in finding London addresses; with one (Elephant and Castle) going so far as lending its name to a whole district.

Mary   Link to this

London street signs abounded
at this time. Most advertised (sometimes cryptically) the trade or business that was carried on in a particular house or building; they were supposed to be hung 9 feet above the carriageway in order to allow a horse and rider to pass beneath them. Many private houses also carried signs, which might include a heraldic device. Visitors/clients would be directed to the general area of a particular sign and then be expected to ask around for precise directions. People knew their neighbours in those days. See Picard, "Restoration London" pp. 8-9. Street numbers were not introduced until the late 18th Century.

serafina   Link to this

I'm curious as to the phrase "took coach" Does this mean Sam has his own coach, or does he hire one, as we would take a taxi today? Anyone have any idea how much hiring a coach from his place of work to his home would cost? He seems to do this quite frequently.

Glyn   Link to this

If you go to "Background Information - Travel" you'll find information about this. Although Sam is making a lot of journeys, especially like today when it was raining, they are all quite short; and I think that even people could share coaches and split the cost.

The other way to travel is by water which he does quite frequently.

He certainly does NOT own his own coach, nor his own horse: that would be well out of his price-range at the moment: rather like buying his own Jaguar or BMW.

vincent   Link to this

Address., Not that long ago, the Royal Mail would find the house I lived in by It's name. The house being their longer than the occupant. People made a lifetime career of living in one location. Numbers are modern way of identifying a geezer, like in the services. My personality was wrapped up in 8 digit number and continued to do so with modern technology, so boring a person and place should have a personality. John (the) Miller at the mill, John Blacksmith at the bellows or John Cambridge of the 3 tuns. Soon we will end up with no 6************ of ********* has 2************ kids like you barcoded food etc.

gerry   Link to this

Address. The potential for confusion reminds me of the years I lived in Tokyo which still doesn't have a "sensible" system of addresses. It was, and is the custom for people to have a little map on their personal card which can be shown to a cabdriver to help him find your destination.No "knowledge" there!
I wonder if there was anything like that in Sam's day.

gerry   Link to this

It just occured to me that nowadays the gadget loving Japanese probably just exchange GPS coordinates.

vincent   Link to this

an aside: using gps to find the geezer; using an inplanted chip in a few spots on ones body like a vin no, your encoded unique barcoded dna sponsored number. You then can be emailed with the latest entree of peapeas on a daily basis wherever you are.

language hat   Link to this

Wrong Jemima!
This is not 13-year-old Jem (and shame on those of you who think there's hanky-panky going on there) but her mother, Mountagu/Sandwich's wife, Lady Jemima (and I think we can be pretty sure there was no h-p going on *there*, either!). Here's the correct link:
http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/115/

john lauer   Link to this

So, Hat, the footnote (1) "...daughter of..." [above] is flat wrong? They can't each be "Lady Jem", can they? First, the confusion on when to read "Mrs" as "mistress" (meaning teen-ager, not concubine), or as "wife of"; now I can't tell who (some think) is leering at whom.

vincent   Link to this

"to lie" The British still have "lay byes "(I beleive) so that they rest their weary autos and engine drawn carts: Lay ups= put buys I do beleive then their is lay off; lay away, too: so full context is really needy for latin/greek soaked Saxxon lingua.

language hat   Link to this

"So, Hat, the footnote ... is flat wrong?"

I'm going by the fact that the daughter seems to be described throughout as Mistress Jem and the mother as Lady Jemima; I suppose Pepys might mix up the nomenclature (though it seems unlikely), but I don't understand the confidence of the footnote. How do they know which he found "at my Lord's"? Is there some other source from which we know that the elder Lady Jemima was out of town? I may have been a bit overconfident in my comment, but I'd like to know why the confusion.

vincent   Link to this

Mistress to Lady: It's all in the timing Her dada is now sitting as the first Sandwich. Now a real Lord sitting with all the Bishops and their ilk. Now our mistress is no longer legal mistress: Notice Sandwich had to give up his seat in the House of Commons no longer a commoner:

Eric Walla   Link to this

I have to give this one to lhat ...

... having been sucked in by the footnote myself. Unless corroborating evidence can be found to back up L&M, I think we've found another good example why we don't just rely on the research and assumptions of the past (or the present, for that matter). Constant vigilance.

Paul Brewster   Link to this

"So, Hat, the footnote ... is flat wrong?"
I’m not yet sure on this one but I’d like to correct one confusion. The footnote is from Wheatley. L&M don’t footnote this reference. I think someone with a copy of the L&M index would need to see if they stick their necks out on this one.

Just to confuse things a bit more. On 27 July 1661, SP will write the following:
“Back to my wife, and with my Lady Jem. and Pall by water through bridge, and showed them the ships with great pleasure, and then took them to my house to show it them (my Lady their mother having been lately all alone to see it and my wife, in my absence in the
country)”

In fact my scan tells me that from this point on the phrase, “Mrs. Jem” that has been used to identify the daughter, will disappear from the Wheatley diary.

Maybe a distinction between Lady Jem and Lady Jemimah will be found.

vincent   Link to this

They are now both lady's of the Realm no longer commoners: as daddy and husband Is an Hearl: check Hansard:

debra   Link to this

Lady Jemimah:
Like language hat, I took this to refer to Jem's mother, the countess of Sandwich. However, according to Claire Tomalin, Sam called on the countess at once when she arrived in London in October 1660 - implying that she was not in London in August. (Tomalin, p126)
In a footnote to an earlier chapter she says, "Pepys's care for the Montagu children begins with the operation on their eldest daughter, Jemima, in the winter of 1659/60, and continues with many other instances. For Lady Montagu's affectionate behaviour to him, see the first entry about her in the Diary, 12 Oct 1660, when Pepys, hearing she has arrived in town, immediately calls on her: 'found her at supper, so she made me sit down all alone with her, and after supper stayed and talked with her – she showing most extraordinary love and kindness'. (Tomalin, Chapter 5, Note 17)

Paul Brewster   Link to this

Lady Jemimah
Interestingly enough in the 12 October 1660 entry, SP will refer to her as Lady Sandwich.

Glyn   Link to this

Irrespective of which Jem was which, it's clear from Paul Brewster's notes that it was Betty Lane (not either Jem) that Pepys "talked with & etc." and then took her to a nearby tavern that wasn't one of his regular drinking haunts.

language hat   Link to this

Thanks, vincent, Paul, and debra!
I withdraw my earlier comment and give thanks once again for the detective skills of the Sam Squad.

vincent   Link to this

to lay from J.Evelyn:oct 3rd 63:" ...My Lady Carteret came to visite, & lay at my House:..."

Phil   Link to this

The Latham Index volume doesn't appear to list this mention for either Jemimah; perhaps they were also unsure as to who it is.

Terry Foreman   Link to this

" my Lord gone with the King by water to dine at the Tower with Sir J. Robinson, Lieutenant."

L&M note the King went there to act as godfather at the christening of Sir John Robinson's child.

Terry Foreman   Link to this

" So to a Committee of Parliament (Sir Hen[eage] Finch, Chairman), to give them an answer to an order of theirs, 'that we could not give them any account of the Accounts of the Navy in the years 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, as they desire.'"

An L&M note leads to this entry in the Commons Journal of 1 June:

Publick Debts. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?co...
Ordered, That the Sub Committee, who are appointed, by the Grand Committee for raising of Monies, to consider of, and state the Debts of the Nation, and of publick Monies due to the State, be, and are hereby, impowered to send for Persons, Papers, and Witnesses

and to this entry in the Commons Journal of 17 July:

Navy Debts. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?co...
Ordered, That the late Commissioners for the Admiralty and Navy, do, with the first Opportunity, certify to this House, a particular and distinct State of all the Debts of the Navy, expressing the Kinds and Natures thereof, under their several Heads.

leading to Pepys's appearance today. L&M further note the Navy Board produced an estimate if its debts 13 August.

Bill   Link to this

"...after dinner to the Privy Seal Office, where I did business. So to a Committee of Parliament..."

Hmm. An early edition of the Diary has additional text. I wonder if "taking money" caused a problem?

...after dinner at the Privy Seal Office, signing things and taking money all day. I could not go to the Red Bull playhouse as I intended. So to a committee of Parliament...
---Diary and correspondence of Samuel Pepys, the diary deciphered by J. Smith. 1854.

Terry Foreman   Link to this

"I wonder if "taking money" caused a problem?"

Not for L&M certainly, nor for Wheatley. J. Smith's speculation about what Pepys did at the Privy Seal Office.

Bill   Link to this

Whoops, I find that Wheatley and other editors have the "additional text" I mention above included in the 3 August 1660 diary entry.

Dick Wilson   Link to this

Terry: It is good to see that Parliament is concerned with the cost of the Navy, but why is Parliament is concerned with Naval financial records 20 years old and older? How old were the ships?

MarkS   Link to this

Parliament is concerned about outstanding debts which may exist after the long interregnum. They are trying to get a clear idea of the financial state of things, and discover whether there are any transactions that were never finalised due the civil war and disruption in government.

They want the details of any outstanding money owed both by and to the navy. If any debts are owed to the navy, they want to claim them. And they want details of old transactions, so that if anyone comes along saying that in King Charles I' s time they supplied the navy with goods and were never paid, and asking for money, there is documentary proof of what happened.

However, it seems that the old account books no longer exist, or cannot be found.

Chris Squire UK   Link to this

In 1660 Lady S was 35 and her eldest daughter [= Lady/Mrs Jem?] probably not much under 18, as she married Lord S [= E Montague] in 1642 [DNB].

One can imagine SP [just 27] enjoying a dinner tete a tete but definitely no hanky panky with either. It was Betty Lane he 'sat and talked with her, &c.'

The main thing to bear in mind, especially if you are, like me, no longer young, is that they were young and full of joie de vivre, in the full tide of life.

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