Wednesday 25 July 1660

In the morning at the office, and after that down to Whitehall, where I met with Mr. Creed, and with him and a Welsh schoolmaster, a good scholar but a very pedagogue, to the ordinary at the Leg in King Street. I got my certificate of my Lord’s and my being sworn. This morning my Lord took leave of the House of Commons, and had the thanks of the House for his great services to his country.

In the afternoon (but this is a mistake, for it was yesterday in the afternoon) Monsieur L’Impertinent and I met and I took him to the Sun and drank with him, and in the evening going away we met his mother and sisters and father coming from the Gatehouse; where they lodge, where I did the first time salute them all, and very pretty Madame Frances1 is indeed. After that very late home and called in Tower Street, and there at a barber’s was trimmed the first time. Home and to bed.

  1. Frances Butler, the beauty.

26 Annotations

Paul Brewster   Link to this

Pepys doesn't appear to be in his best form here.
This is the first sentence as shown in L&M:
In the morning at the office, and after that [[my dining with Mr. Creede and seeing the Butlers ought to be placed in yesterdays account it being put here by mistake]] down to Whitehall, where I met with Mr. Creed, and with him and a Welch schoolmaster, a good scholar but a very pedagogue, to the ordinary at the Leg in King's-Street.
Note the [[]] means that SP has inserted this text in the margin.

vincent   Link to this

...In the afternoon (but this is a mistake, for it was yesterday in the afternoon) ..." I wonder when did he revise this entry, any Wheatly comments?
"...This morning my Lord took leave of the House of Commons, and had the thanks of the House for his great services to his country..." Is this read as When he made to move to exit, that the House did.. or When after he had arrived in the chambers, that the house...

Paul Brewster   Link to this

This morning my Lord took leave of the House of Commons
According to L&M: SP got this wrong as well: "Sandwich resigned from the Commons on the 24th, not the 25th."

vincent   Link to this

Paul thanks for the clarification;

martha wishart   Link to this

two pubs and a beauty-no wonder he has the days confused

chip   Link to this

Pepys does seem to get rather confused around Ms. Butler, obviously he deemed her beautiful and his attraction to her powerful. She melts the days together. I think she represents an anomaly for Sam as he is wont to dismiss people by asscociation (as so many of us). Witness today's introduction of the scholar via Creed. Pepys is bound to find something askew about him for his link to Creed. Ms Butler breaks this rule. Does the reference to being trimmed the first time mean he did not wait in line?

Mary   Link to this

...being trimmed the first time....
I took this to mean that this was the first time that Sam had patronised this particular barber. Having just moved from Westminster to the City of London, he needs to find a new, local barber that suits him and this is the first one that he's tried. Perhaps he'll have to try others in the area before he finds the one that has the right touch.

Paul Brewster   Link to this

The Gatehouse
We may have a bit of confusion here regarding the actual building referenced here. The Wheatley footnote: "The Gatehouse at Westminster was a prison. Perhaps they were friends of the keeper." The L&M Companion concludes an entry devoted to the "The Gatehouse, Westminster" with the following sentence: "The gatehouse where the 'pretty Madam' Frances Butler and her family lodged [July 25th 1660] was probably the gatehouse which commanded the entry into New Palace Yard from King St." The L&M locates The Gatehouse, Westminster at the "east end of Tothill Street near the west end of the Abbey."

A. De Araujo   Link to this

"a good scholar but a very pedagogue"Does SP means to say "pedantic" rather than pedagogue? Pedagogue is not a bad quality unless SP feels that he is being treated as a child. Language Hat please help.

language hat   Link to this

"a very pedagogue":
Apparently "pedagogue" does tend to have a negative connotation. Here's the OED, which includes this very quote:

A man whose occupation is the instruction of children or youths; a schoolmaster, teacher, preceptor. Now usually in a more or less contemptuous or hostile sense, with implication of pedantry, dogmatism, or severity.

1387 TREVISA Higden (Rolls) VI. 7 Sigebertus.. ordeyned scoles of lettrure.., and assignede pedagoges and maistres for children. 1613 E. HOBY Counter-snarle 39 As if I were now to learne of such an Hipodidascalian Pedagogue to measure my phrase by his rule and line. 1660 PEPYS Diary 25 July, A Welsh schoolmaster, a good scholar but a very pedagogue. 1735 SOMERVILLE Chase II. 96 Cow'd by the ruling Rod, and haughty Frowns Of Pedagogues severe. 1875 GLADSTONE Glean. VI. v. 145 Without.. any assumption of the tone of the critic or the pedagogue.

Glyn   Link to this

"a Welsh schoolmaster, a good scholar but a very pedagogue,"

I've always thought that being an educator was good, but being a pedagogue was bad. To me, it has aspects of saying that something is true as a matter of fact, without feeling the need to justify it, however dubious it might sound. A bit like saying "This is so and don't argue with me because I'm an expert."

Or perhaps it means trying to teach something very dubious, using verbiage and wrongly-applied scholarship to back it up.

To me, a perfect example of a Welsh pedagogue would be Fluellen in Shakespeare's "Henry V" (he's always giving his learned opinions; and at one point claims that King Henry is really Welsh - or should be). (Also Alexander the Great because he comes from a country that is very like Wales.)

Did the great wisdom of us Welsh and our generosity in sharing our knowledge give us a poor reputation at this time?

(By the way, never say "Welch on a deal" - we consider it English racist slander, which is what you can expect from them.)

Nigel Pond   Link to this

Note to Glyn

Is that expression a reference to the Welsh? That had never crossed my (English) mind before. Do you know the context from which it is derived? Diolch yn fawr.

language hat   Link to this

to welsh/welch:
There is no known connection between this verb and the Welsh people; the OED says "Of obscure origin," and this is the general consensus. But Welsh people take offense at it, so it is best avoided in their company. Compare the adverb "niggardly," which offends many African-Americans; again, there is no etymological reason for the offense, but people cannot be expected to be etymologists, and concern for the feelings of one's fellows should trump scientific accuracy.

vincent   Link to this

Strange that the OED does not have it listed:
'mongst us illiterate under utilised heathern, it was source of great anguish, along with other PUT Downs that most under funded face on a daily basis, even in this politically correct climate.

upper_left_hand_corner   Link to this

"a very pedagogue"
One possible source of misunderstanding here for modern readers might be the use of "very". Read it as "true", "old" or "longtime" and it might make more sense.
I'm not sure if it corresponds exactly, but there is a usage in spanish that is similar --- "la muy bruja!", or literally "the very witch" is supposed to be understood as "the old witch!" This expression is used in La Vida de un Picaro (The Life of a Rogue), 500 years old but still quite readable, and perhaps Pepys might have read it, as it is the sort of shaggy dog story he would have enjoyed.

Glyn   Link to this

Not so, Language Hat: the two terms are completely different.

The linguistic origins of the word "niggardly" are completely clearcut, and any association with racism is spurious. That doesn't apply to the term "to welsh" - no-one has ever come up with any other origin. If linguists say that the most likely derivation of welsh is to do with the Welsh then I'm prepared to believe them - I've never heard of any other hypotheses. Like many other derogatory terms, it is unlikely to have a clear written origin.

Grahamt   Link to this

"To Welch/Welsh" is of 19th century origin, so irrelevant to Pepys. Btw, welsh is I believe Saxon and modern German for foreigner, which the ancient Britons were to the invaders. Most Brits are a mixture of anglo-saxon-norman-celt-viking-and-any-other-invader, so any "racism" against the Welsh/Irish/Scots/English/Shetland Islanders, etc. within these isles is spurious to say the least.

language hat   Link to this

to welsh/welch:
Glyn, it's completely unjustifiable to conclude from "no-one has ever come up with any other origin" (which is unlikely, by the way) that therefore the one you prefer must be true. It is very hard to tell where words come from. An example: are you familiar with a bird called the wheatear? Obvious name, no? Wheat + ear. Actually, it's originally "white-arse," which was reinterpreted as a plural and reanalyzed. There's no telling where "to welsh" came from; the first thing you learn in linguistics is to distrust the "obvious." Which brings us to:

"If linguists say that the most likely derivation of welsh is to do with the Welsh..." But they don't; that's why dictionaries say "Origin unknown" or the like. I understand why Welsh people dislike the word, and I respect their feelings; there's no need to try to justify those feelings by spurious science.

vincent   Link to this

what does btw mean?
Graham your comment opens up a big can of worms.

vera   Link to this

BTW

By The Way.

jamie yeager   Link to this

"A very pedagogue" again...
"Upper Left Hand Corner" has a good reading, above, complete with illustrative Spanish usage. Another way to think about it is to substitute the form "veritable" or "verifiable" for "very." Doubtless it is an intensifier applied to a negative sense of "pedagogue" as per "Glyn," further above.

Susanna   Link to this

"Very pedagogue"

I read this as "true" without even thinking -- probably a result of being raised with the phrase "very God" in church, until it was modernized to "true God" about 20 or 25 years ago.

Terry Foreman   Link to this

"According to L&M: SP got this wrong as well: "Sandwich resigned from the Commons on the 24th, not the 25th.""
To confirm L&M and this post by Paul Brewster see: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1660/07/24/#c53...

Bill   Link to this

"a very pedagogue"

I agree with upper_left_hand_corner above about the usage of "very" and I think Sam is paying a compliment with no negative connotation for the word "pedagogue". He's a good scholar but a true instructor.

VERY, true; real; the same or identical. Adverbially, in a great degree.
---A Complete and Universal English Dictionary. J. Barclay, 1799.

Sasha Clarkson   Link to this

Good ... AND .... would be positive; good ... BUT ... is a negative qualifier.

There are similar terms to "welsh", meaning "foreigner, in several Indo-European languages. "Vlach" in Serbo-Croat means Romanian; "Włochy" is the Polish name for Italy.

The shorter OED (on historical principles) dates the pejorative "welsh" to 1857, and describes it as a racing term "to swindle out of money laid as a bet", and a "welsher" (1860) as a bookmaker at a race-meeting who does the same. Both terms of origin unknown.

Weavethe hawk   Link to this

Here's an interesting take on from where the expression "Welch", as in renage on a promise, originated. This explanation comes from an actual Weshman.

In Celtic culture there is no difference between this life and the next and the next life after that etc forever.
Therefore from a purely Celtic viewpoint, if I owed money in this life but for some reason was unable to pay it, then quite naturally I would pay off the debt in the next life or the one after that.
It has been understood by non-Celts (Anglo Saxons) that the Welsh therefore cannot be trusted - so the word Welsh/Welch is used to describe a person who does not pay up when the debt is due to be paid etc.

Log in to post an annotation.

If you don't have an account, then register here.