Tuesday 25 June 1661
Up this morning to put my papers in order that are come from my Lord’s, so that now I have nothing there remaining that is mine, which I have had till now.
This morning came Mr. Goodgroome to me (recommended by Mr. Mage), with whom I agreed presently to give him 20s. entrance, which I then did, and 20s. a month more to teach me to sing, and so we began, and I hope I have come to something in it. His first song is “La cruda la bella.” He gone my brother Tom comes, with whom I made even with my father and the two drapers for the cloths I sent to sea lately.
At home all day, in the afternoon came Captain Allen and his daughter Rebecca and Mr. Hempson, and by and by both Sir Williams, who sat with me till it was late, and I had a very gallant collation for them.
At night to bed.
39 Annotations
First Reading
A. De Araujo • Link
"La cruda la bella" If my italian serves me right cruda means raw;bella of course means beautiful(feminine).is he talking about vegetables:salsa cruda? or perhaps apples,like beautiful raw apples?If the song is about women,which I think it is most likely, then I would have trouble translating it.
dirk • Link
Tu mi lasci, o cruda, o bella (canzonetta)
"Tu mi lasci, o cruda, o bella!
Ah, dove vai,
O fatal mia cara stella?
Ohim?, che fai?
De tuoi lumi i dolci rai
Nieghi a gli occhi, e doni al core,
Empia, l’ardore.
Torna Clori, e mira almeno
Come si strugge
Al bel guardo tuo sereno
Chi t’ama. E fugge
Pur costei, che ‘l fiore adugge
Di mia speme: e di lei privo
Pur anco vivo?
O d’Amor legge severa:
L’anima mia
Fugge, et ei non vuol ch’io pera
Ah, sorte ria!
Seguir? per questa via
La mia vita, dimmi, o sorte,
O la mia morte?”
Francesco Bonardo de Perissone
Comp. Sigismondo d’India, from Palermo, Sicily (1582? - 1629)
Source:
http://www.carpediem-records.com/…
Translation:
You are leaving me, o cruel, o beautiful one!
Ah, where are you going,
o my fatal, beloved star?
Alas, what will I do?
You deny me your sweet glances
and inflame my heart,
wicked one, with ardor.
Return, Clori, and see at least
how your carefree air
torments him who loves you.
And still she flees,
she who lets wither the flower
of my hope: and can I go on living without her?
O Love’s harsh law:
my soul flees,
and yet I am not allowed to die.
Ah, cruel fate!
Following this path, will I find
my life, tell me, fate, or my death?
dirk • Link
Italian
Does anybody know if Sam spoke Italian? Did he understand the text of the song he was learning, or was he just fascinated by the sweet sounds of the Italian language - as many opera lovers today?
daniel • Link
Italian
as we will find out later in this diary, Sam is familiar with Latin, French and Spanish as he forms his own code out of it when he needs to be extra discreet. His Italian skills might have been less developed.
vicente • Link
"...brother Tom comes, with whom I made even with my father and the two drapers for the cloths I sent to sea lately..." Splitting the Commission, I wonder? 8 percent??? not telling now his extras. Must be using his other little black book[receipt book for keeping tally of his financial transactions.].
Ruben • Link
Dirk:
Thank you for the wonderful song and the site.
When you speak Latin and some Spanish and French you understand most Italian, believe me...
Xjy • Link
Understanding Italian
Very close to Spanish, not to mention Latin. I've watched Spanish speakers (not only Argentines :-) conversing directly in Spanish with Italians speaking Italian. Almost as close as Swedish, Norwegian and Danish. Finnish-Estonian?? Bulgarian-Russian? That sort of thing. Probably not quite the same for non-native speakers, mind.
Pedro. • Link
When you speak Latin
Sam's great knowledge of Latin would help him understand all the Romance Languages quite quickly.
One interesting point, as I have been led to believe, is that Spanish speakers can understand written Portuguese, but are flummoxed by the pronunciation.
language hat • Link
"not only Argentines"
Heh. I used to live in Argentina and it's quite true that Buenos Aires is like one huge Little Italy (best pizza I ever had, too). We had a plumber who'd immigrated from Italy years before and forgotten Italian without really learning Spanish; I was the only one in the family who could understand him.
language hat • Link
"Spanish speakers can understand written Portuguese, but are flummoxed by the pronunciation"
This too is quite true. I have little problem reading Portuguese, but hearing it spoken is mind-boggling (either variety) -- especially with the version of the mother country, I have to hear it for a couple of minutes before I even realize it's Portuguese. Weirdest vowels I've ever heard.
dirk • Link
Spanish, Italian etc
One Romance language was overlooked here: Catalan - which *is* a language, not a dialect of Spanish. Actually Catalan of all the Romance languages is the closest to the original popular Latin.
Australian Susan • Link
Overloked Romance Languages
Isn't there also a language spoken in Switzerland by Italians, which is a language in its own right? (and not like Swisserdeutsch)
Jenny Doughty • Link
There is Romansh, but less than 1% of Swiss people speak it.
http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/lang.html
vicente • Link
LH shoosh
Australian Susan • Link
Romansh
Thanks, Jenny! Is it also spoken in northern Italy and/or south west Austria? Is it like Italian? And is Brazilian Portuguese different from that spoken in Portugal? I used to work with someone from Portugal. He reckoned the *Spanish* had funny vowel sounds, and couldn't play football as well as the Portuguese. [On that latter point, and going off topic, sorry, he's probably feeling very top-of-the-heap now]!
Will courtiers be learning Portuguese in England at this time of the diary? Or was it just expected that Catherine would learn English - sink or swim. ??
Pedro. • Link
Conversing in different languages.
Catarina could speak Spanish, and Charles could also speak a little, and so initially they would converse in Spanish. I don't know yet if she was fully comfortable with English, even by the time she went home, but she had a good education and would be able learn enough. I have not seen much evidence that anyone learnt Portuguese, although many could get by in Spanish.
Brazilian Portuguese is more predictable, whereas in Portugal many vowels can be unpronounced or weakened. The difference in pronunciation of the letter "d", and "te" at the end of a word, make it much more musical and sexy!
Ruben • Link
Conversing in different languages.
I see almost all the languages derived from Latin were mentioned, so we cannot forget Romanian, and then the list is complete.
Harry • Link
Conversing in different languages
and then the list is complete.
How about special versions of French spoken in the New World: in Quebec (not only is the accent different, but the vocabulary can vary)and Haiti, and more generally Creole?
Ruben • Link
Conversing in different languages
Harry: those you cite are more local variants than languages. I would say more grandchildren of Latin than children.
They are more than a dozen such dialects.
Creole languages instead are composed of French or English words and an African or other (depends on the country) local grammar.
You cannot say that they are direct children of Latin.
If not so, then English itself contains a lot ot Latin and still I think it is more Germanic than Latin.
What do English experts think ot this?
Mary • Link
Yet another kind of Portuguese
is that language (Cristao) spoken in the Portuguese Colony of Malacca, Malaysia. Speakers of Cristao say that they have great difficulty understanding the 'deep Portuguese' of Portugal, but they anxiously keep all possible elements of their European heritage alive.
vicente • Link
English: is it latin based or Germanic ?: My [non macadamia]view is that the basic single or 2 syllable tend to be Germanic, where Latin-French tend to higher inscrutable officious or officiary for specialised documatary communication: 'tis great, to be able to tell someone that they are procrastinating or they B***** L*** ------
dirk • Link
Is English a Germanic language?
Definitely. The origin of languages is determined by structural similarities, and not the origin of individual words or phrases. And the syntax of English is definitely Germanic. (Think for instance of the common feature of Germanic languages to form compound words by simply "adding them up" instead of connecting them by a preposition, e.g. English: dining + room = dining room - French: salle + manger = salle a manger, with a preposition.) As such the structures of English derive directly from Old Saxon and related languages. Of course if we go back all the way, we find that both Germanic and Romance languages all go back to Indo-European - but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.
Grahamt • Link
English is a Nordic Language as much as Germanic.
Beowolf, the oldest known Anglo Saxon poem, is much closer to Scandinavian than to German. Of course now it is a hybrid of Anglo-saxon-jute-nordic-latin-norman-gaellic-indo-sino-franco-judo-afro-everything. All the early invasions and the breadth of the British empire (that includes North America) ensured that it became a unique melting pot of languages. Sentence structure is not Germanic; we do not at the end of sentences secondary verbs put. We also do not capitalise all Nouns. You could find examples showing English was descended from almost any language group: no split infinitives (latin), adjective before noun (Germanic) -son suffix on names (nordic), etc.
In reality it descended from them all, but became a language in its own right with its own grammer and structure long before Pepys and Shakespeare.
Phil • Link
As interesting as this is, can we try snd keep on-topic please - we were originally disucssing Sam's ability to speak Italian. Please use the discussion group http://www.smartgroups.com/groups… for stuff like this. Many thanks.
dirk • Link
Sam's knowledge of Italian
Browsing through the entire diary, I found several passages that seem to suggest that Sam's knowledge of the Italian language was very limited - he certainly had difficulty understanding people who spoke it (but then again that may have been due to the accent of the speaker).
Some examples:
(I don't think these are spoilers, as the are given here without the context.)
"the Italian Signor Baptista, who hath composed a play in Italian for the Opera (...) The words I did not understand, and so know not how they are fitted"
12 February 1666/1667
"though it may be pleasing to an Italian, or one that understands the tongue, yet to me it did not"
16 February 1666/1667
Still, when he starts using his own variety of lingua franca, it will contain some Italian words - but he may have picked them up here and there without really mastering the language.
tjcarr • Link
20s. entrance fee
Its interesting to note that such "sign up" fees are nothing new. It will be interesting to see how his vocal talent develops.
A. De Araujo • Link
"Brazilian Portuguese" Aussie Susan, the Portuguese spoken in Brazil has many African and Indigenous words, also the pronunciation is different from Portugal since they tend not pronounce the vowels the way Brazilians do.
tom • Link
Portuguese and Spanish are without question the closest romance languages having an 89% similar vocabulary. Italian and Spanish may sound more alike, but a deep and meaningful conversation between speakers of these two languages gets muddled in no time.
Juan Pablo • Link
I am from Colombia and I agree with you completely Tom. I can converse with any Portuguese speakers almost perfectly, but with the italian speakers the meanings and context get mixed up.
pat stewart cavalier • Link
No, Ruben, the list is not complete : you've all forgotten Occitan, the native language spoken in Languedoc (one of the French provinces# until early 20th century, and which still remains as a language for intellectuals. The main 19th century poet was Frédéric Mistral #1830-1914). It was said in the middle ages that the count of Toulouse, whose mother language was Occitan, was writing poetry when the king of France was still signing with a cross.
Second Reading
Terry Foreman • Link
No, pat stewart, the list is not complete
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rom…
eileen d. • Link
off topic comment about off topic comments:
despite Phil's plea that we move the romance language discussion elsewhere, it continued even 10 years later! unusual, since we're generally a respectful crowd, appreciative of Phil's amazing project and all his work. I think it points to the preponderance of linguists (professional and amateur) that follow this site. the passion could not be contained...
the parsing and sourcing of Sam's vocabulary is truly one of the highlights of the annotations.
Terry Foreman • Link
"He gone my brother Tom comes, with whom I made even with my father and the two drapers for the cloths I sent to sea lately."
L&M: The cloth (which included £50-worth of fine linens) was to be used as gifts: .
Samuel Pepys to Sandwich
Written from: Navy Office
Date: 25 June 1661
Shelfmark: MS. Carte 73, fol(s). 538
Document type: Holograph
Sends further particulars of purchases for the Admiral, having been advised that it would be well to add fine linens to the fine cloths [see MS. Carte 73, fol(s). 525]. Alderman Blackwell will wait upon his Lordship in the Downs.
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/s…
Third Reading
MartinVT • Link
Regarding the discussion of linguistics 20 years ago: Pepysians here may be interested that Languagehat, who participated in the first reading, maintained then and still maintains today an excellent blog on linguistics, with (almost) daily posts since 2002, which you can find at https://languagehat.com/. Highly recommended!
San Diego Sarah • Link
The Commons seem to have forgotten Charles II's letter of June 22 about concentrating their energy on the Act of Indemnity:
https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…
Instead these lawmakers have decided to rewrite the CofE liturgy. No small undertaking:
Liturgy.
Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to view the several Laws for confirming the Liturgy of the Church of England; and to make Search, whether the original Book of the Liturgy, annexed to the Act passed in the Fifth and Sixth Years of the Reign of King Edward the Sixth, be yet extant; and to bring in a compendious Bill to supply any Defect in the former Laws; and to provide for an effectual Conformity to the Liturgy of the Church, for the Time to come.
And a Committee was accordingly appointed, of all the Members of this House, that are of the Long Robe: And the preparing the Bill was especially recommended to the Care of Mr. Serjeant Keeling.
High Commission Court.
Ordered, That it be referred to the same Committee, to look into the Act that takes away the High Commission Court; and to report their Opinion, how far the coercive Power of the Ecclesiastical Courts are taken away; and to prepare a Bill for settling the same, if they see Cause: And this Business is especially recommended to the Care of Mr. Serjeant Keeling.
Yes, today they did consider paying for the carriages needed to carry Charles, his belongings, the Court, and their belongings to Worcester etc.
By belongings, think beds and dressers and the odd tapestry so he and they have all the comforts of home!
San Diego Sarah • Link
The Lords are no better -- they are looking for a diplomatic way out of Aubrey De Vere, 20th Earl of Oxford's Claim to the Office of Great Chamberlain of England.
The position hereditarily belongs to the Earls of Oxford, but as Aubrey was 5 when his father was killed fighting at Maastrich, King Charles I "temporarily" awarded it to the Earl of Lindsey. 30 years later the new Earl of Lindsey has no intention of handing back the privilege to Aubrey.
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
Charles II has graciously allowed the Lords sort out the mess:
E. of Oxon's Petition, concerning the Office of Gr. Chamberlain.
The Earl of Pembrooke acquainted the House, "That the Earl of Oxon had desired his Lordship to present a Petition on his Behalf to this House."
Hereupon the House commanded the same to be read; which was done accordingly:
"To the King's Most Excellent Majesty.
"The humble Petition of Awbrey De Vere, Earl of Oxford;
"Sheweth,
"That Your Petitioner is lawfully entitled to the Office and Place of Great Chamberlain of England, with all the Rights and Privileges thereunto belonging.
"That, in or about the First Year of the Reign of Your Royal Father, a Petition was exhibited to His Majesty, against Your Petitioner's Father, by the Father of the Earl of Lyndsey that now is; in which Petition, the Earl of Lyndsey's Father claimed both the Earldom of Oxford, and Office of Great Chamberlain of England. And the Matter of that Petition was referred, by Your Majesty's Royal Father, to the Peers then sitting in Parliament, to the End that they, by the Advice of the Judges assistant, might certify their Opinions to His Majesty.
"That, upon this Reference, the Right of Your Petitioner's Father to the Earldom of Oxford was certified to be clear, and that without One diffenting Voice.
"But as to his Right to the Office of Great Chamberlain, there was an equal Difference of Opinion for some Time; the Lord Chief Baron Walter and the Lord Chief Justice Crewe being fully satisfied that the Right was in Your Petitioner's Father, though Justice Dodderidge and Justice Yelverton were of another Mind; until at last, by the casting Voice of Baron Trevor, who came in at the End of the Debate, as Your Petitioner hath been informed, the Opinions were made Three against Two; and thereupon their Lordships were induced to advise His late Majesty to confer the said Office on the Earl of Lyndsey.
"Ever since which Time, the said Office of Great Chamberlain hath been held by the said Earl of Lyndsey, and his Son Mountague Earl of Lyndsey, who claimeth it as his Inheritance.
San Diego Sarah • Link
CONCLUSION:
"Now, forasmuch as the Right of Your Petitioner stands prejudiced by that single Opinion only, and that the Weight of this Case may well deserve a more full and clear Determination; Your Petitioner humbly prayeth, That Your Majesty would be graciously pleased to appoint the Case concerning the said Office of Great Chamberlain of England to be re-heard by the Peers now sitting in Parliament; and that they, with the Assistance of the Judges, may re-examine Your Petitioner's Title to the said Office, that so, Your Majesty being fully informed, Right may be done to Your Petitioner in the Premises; and that the said Mountague now Earl of Lyndsey may shew what Right and Title he hath unto the said Office and Chamberlainship, and make Answer unto the Premises.
"And Your Petitioner shall ever pray for Your Majesty's long and happy Reign.
King's Reference of it to this House.
"At the Court at Whitehall,
"June 10th, 1661.
"His Majesty is graciously pleased to refer this Petition to the Peers sitting in Parliament, to hear the Petitioner and the Earl of Lyndsey concerning the Office of Lord Great Chamberlain, and do therein according to Justice and Honour.
"Will. Morice."
E. of Derby's Petition concerning the Office of Gr. Chamberlain, and Reference.
Also a Petition of the Earl of Derby, concerning the Office of Great Chamberlain of England, was read:
"To the King's Most Excellent Majesty.
"The most humble Petition of Charles Earl of Derby;
"Sheweth,
"That Edward Vere, late Earl of Oxford, and Lord High Chamberlain of England, had Issue only One Son, Henry, and Three Daughters, videlicet, Elizabeth, B'idget, and Susan, and died Anno Domini 1604; after whose Death, his Son Henry was Earl of Oxford and Lord High Chamberlain, and died some Years since without Issue; by and since whose Death, the said Office of Lord High Chamberlain ought to descend and come unto Your Petitioner, he being Grandson and Heir of Elizabeth the Eldest Sister of the said Henry.
"Wherefore he humbly prayeth, That Your Sacred Majesty would be graciously pleased to refer the Hearing and Determining of Your Petitioner's Right and Title to the said Office to the most Noble Peers assembled in Parliament, who, with the Assistance of the Reverend Judges, may do Your Petitioner Right, according to the Merit of his Cause.
"And Your Majesty's Petitioner (as however by Duty and Allegiance bound) shall ever pray for Your Majesty's long and happy Reign.
"Derby."
"At the Court at Whitehall, the 13th of June 1661.
"His Majesty is graciously pleased to refer this Petition to the Peers sitting in Parliament, to hear the Petitioner and the Earl of Lyndsey concerning the Office of Lord Great Chamberlain, and to do therein according to Justice and Honour.
"Edw. Nicholas."
ORDERED, That the Earl of Lyndsey may have Copies of the said Two Petitions, if he please.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk…
David G • Link
The commentators 20 years ago who were discussing Sam’s languages forgot to mention Greek, which he surely would have studied at St. Paul’s, if not also at Huntington Grammar.
RLB • Link
If the song dirk posted is indeed the one Sam was learning, it can be listened to on YouTube. The top one by Gudrun Anders is very good, but this - like Sam's - is a male voice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e…
It was apparently written by one Sigismondo d'India (never heard of him, which surprises me a bit) in the early 1600s, so at least the timing works out.