Friday 15 February 1666/67

Up and with Sir W. Batten and [Sir] J. Minnes by coach to White Hall, where we attended upon the Duke of York to complain of the disorders the other day among the seamen at the Pay at the Ticket Office, and that it arises from lack of money, and that we desire, unless better provided for with money, to have nothing more to do with the payment of tickets, it being not our duty; and the Duke of York and [Sir] W. Coventry did agree to it, so that I hope we shall be rid of that trouble. This done, I moved for allowance for a house for Mr. Turner, and got it granted. Then away to Westminster Hall, and there to the Exchequer about my tallies, and so back to White Hall, and so with Lord Bellasses to the Excise Office, where met by Sir H. Cholmly to consider about our business of money there, and that done, home and to dinner, where I hear Pegg Pen is married this day privately; no friends, but two or three relations on his side and hers. Borrowed many things of my kitchen for dressing their dinner. So after dinner to the office, and there busy and did much business, and late at it. Mrs. Turner come to me to hear how matters went; I told her of our getting rent for a house for her. She did give me account of this wedding to-day, its being private being imputed to its being just before Lent, and so in vain to make new clothes till Easter, that they might see the fashions as they are like to be this summer; which is reason good enough. Mrs. Turner tells me she hears [Sir W. Pen] gives 4500l. or 4000 with her. They are gone to bed, so I wish them much sport, and home to supper and to bed. They own the treaty for a peace publickly at Court, and the Commissioners providing themselves to go over as soon as a passe comes for them.

15 Annotations

Terry Foreman   Link to this

John Evelyn's Diary

15 Feb. My little book in answer to Sir Geo. Mackenzie on Solitude was now published, intitled 'Public Employment and an active Life with its Appanages preferred to Solitude.' [ http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924013181791 ]
[ http://library.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extra... ]

http://snipurl.com/sz6lc

cape henry   Link to this

"...I told her of our getting rent for a house for her."
Good for her and good for him.

cum salis grano   Link to this

"...we attended upon the Duke of York to complain of the disorders the other day among the seamen at the Pay at the Ticket Office, and that it arises from lack of money, and that we desire, unless better provided for with money, to have nothing more to do with the payment of tickets, it being not our duty; and the Duke of York and [Sir] W. Coventry did agree to it, so that I hope we shall be rid of that trouble...."

?So whose job be it to have the Tars paid for work done.?

cape henry   Link to this

"So whose job be it..."A most excellent question.But this seems to me to be a dangerous can to be kicking down the road.

Miss Ann   Link to this

How do they pay the sailors if they don't have enough money? Is it "everyone on 1/2 pay", or "pay the full amount to the first in line and when we run out of cash the others will just have to wait"? Doesn't sound like a very good system at all.
Can't wait to see the new fashions ...

Ruben   Link to this

How do they pay the sailors if they don’t have enough money?
Every sailor gets a ticket (not money). When in port he goes to the ticket office to change his ticket for real money. If there is no money, he can sell his ticket to a merchant, or pay for his beer, etc., (with a discount). As the King is having a credit problem, merchants distrust tickets and will discount so much that sailors get almost nothing for their efforts. When this becomes clear to the sailor, he goes back to the ticket office and asks FOR HIS MONEY! When there are more than 3 sailors reclaiming their salaries, it is highly probably that the pale functionary that is in charge of the office will need more than good manners to control the situation...

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"They own the treaty for a peace publickly at Court, and the Commissioners providing themselves to go over as soon as a passe comes for them."

"What's this with the pass from the Hague?"

"Says it's the bill for King Charles' housekeeping when he was a refugee in Holland." young Morris holds bill.

The Hague...

"And they say we Dutch have no sense of humor..." Hearty chuckles.

cape henry   Link to this

Thanks, Ruben. No doubt we have been through this maze before, but if the Ticket Office is not a part of the Navy Office is it a function of the Treasury directly?
I get the idea that Pepys' position is that once the N.O. - absent real money - issues the Ticket-in-Lieu-Of, it has discharged its responsibility to the sailor.We then get the scenario Ruben outlines above where the sailor is pretty much on his own to be robbed either by the merchants or by the government.I say let's all attend a play, shall we gentlemen?

cum salis grano   Link to this

money and what it buys:
Have gold or silver, it is scarce, only a few have real gold, very few of the Lordly ones have any either, they wait until death to settle, they even have to ask permission to sell land in order to settle debts, there be tabs, chits, IOU's, home made farthings, a few copper groats, along with some silver tanners and bobs.

Samuell represents the new wealth, his father , fellow merchants and tradesmen relied on good will of the people to settle each quarter their tabs for purchases, this was still so in England, up to the second world war, the little guys had to wait for payment while they had to pay the big guys on receipt of mechandise.

'Tis why it is interesting to see how Samuell, every 3 months would settle his accounts.
Even little old me had a running account with the big paper companies and would settle every 3 months when they asked.

The man in the street had to have a tab running if he was trustworthy, else it was cash on the barrel.
Thus it was not a consumer market as little money in circulation.
Government and the big guys used pieces of wood to keep score.

See http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1667/02/13/
it illustrates how One man [ Mr. Lanyon, ]loaned money to the kings Treasury from his stack.

Money and who has it, has always been the mystery that still needs a solution. Some know how to accumulate it, more know how to spend it, especially if they do not have money.

The Poor tars are in the same position as those that have no credit card and no bank account and work when it is available and short changed [fee] by money changers because the employer pays by check that may bounce.

Pennsylvania was named so, because C II had find a way to pay off his debt to William Penn. [ his bed companions always cash or goodies ]

Lots of theories on money, but the question of what something be worth is still up in the air.
Just a view point.

Terry Foreman   Link to this

"Just a view point."

Maybe so, cum salis grano, but one that is informed and informative about dealings that many of us have had no personal acquaintance with, living as many of us do and have (at least on the west side of the pond) in a world awash in cash (and credit). Thanks very much for clarifying matters.

Ruben   Link to this

16 ton and what do you get? another day over and deeper in debt...
...I own my soul to the company's store...

Robert Gertz   Link to this

However there is an alternative employer, who pays in dollars...As Sam and co will soon learn to their misfortune.

Nothing like putting your greatest skill to use in destroying your opponent.

Australian Susan   Link to this

"... it being not our duty..." hot potato, hot potato.

Ruben makes reference to workers getting goods on tick from "the company store" - which of course, charged the top whack for goods. Just after our period, when the industrial revolution cranks into being, some canny industrialists paid in tokens which could only be exchanged in the factory shop. It came to be a hated system.

In the 1950s, the Church of England was still paying Vicars quarterly and thus the butcher, the baker, the grocer etc all had to wait to be paid: they reckoned the Church could be relied upon...

Robert Gertz   Link to this

Whenever my brother and sisters claim there's no need for labor rights, I remind them of our uncles and grandfathers' tales of the company/factory store system. Pay pennies, steal them back, kick you out on the street if you get sick or hurt, beat or kill you if you complain too loudly.

cum salis grano   Link to this

Yep, history is rarely remembered, even recent events fade into nothing.
Jam yesterday [good old days rarely the pain], jam tomorrow [win the lottery], no jam today [whatever].
Failure to know or remember history is the down fall of many, while others use it to prosper.

Log in to post an annotation.

If you don't have an account, then register here.