Friday 1 September 1665

Up, and to visit my Lady Pen and her daughter at the Ropeyarde where I did breakfast with them and sat chatting a good while. Then to my lodging at Mr. Shelden’s, where I met Captain Cocke and eat a little bit of dinner, and with him to Greenwich by water, having good discourse with him by the way. After being at Greenwich a little while, I to London, to my house, there put many more things in order for my totall remove, sending away my girle Susan and other goods down to Woolwich, and I by water to the Duke of Albemarle, and thence home late by water. At the Duke of Albemarle’s I overheard some examinations of the late plot that is discoursed of and a great deale of do there is about it. Among other discourses, I heard read, in the presence of the Duke, an examination and discourse of Sir Philip Howard’s, with one of the plotting party. In many places these words being, “Then,” said Sir P. Howard, “if you so come over to the King, and be faithfull to him, you shall be maintained, and be set up with a horse and armes,” and I know not what. And then said such a one, “Yes, I will be true to the King.” “But, damn me,” said Sir Philip, “will you so and so?” And thus I believe twelve times Sir P. Howard answered him a “damn me,” which was a fine way of rhetorique to persuade a Quaker or Anabaptist from his persuasion. And this was read in the hearing of Sir P. Howard, before the Duke and twenty more officers, and they make sport of it, only without any reproach, or he being anything ashamed of it!1 But it ended, I remember, at last, “But such a one (the plotter) did at last bid them remember that he had not told them what King he would be faithfull to.”

  1. This republican plot was described by the Lord Chancellor in a speech delivered on October 9th, when parliament met at Oxford.

22 Annotations

Terry Foreman   Link to this

"my Lady Pen and her daughter at the Ropeyarde"

Well, at the site: L&M say they stayed with the Ropemaker to Woolwich Yard, William Bodham, during the plague.

Todd Bernhardt   Link to this

"And thus I believe twelve times Sir P. Howard answered him a “damn me,” which was a fine way of rhetorique to persuade a Quaker or Anabaptist from his persuasion."

Why?

I love when Samuel transcribes actual dialog of the day ... it brings that time so much closer.

CGS   Link to this

"...But, damn me,..."
Why the "me"?: curse , or condemning it be usually the other person.

damn, n
[f. prec. vb.
(The conjecture that, in sense 2, the word is the Hindí d{amac}m, dawm, an ancient copper coin, of which 1600 went to a rupee (see Yule), is ingenious, but has no basis in fact.)]

. The utterance of the word ‘damn’ as a profane imprecation.
1619 FLETCHER M. Thomas II. ii, Rack a maids tender ears, with dam's and Devils. 1719 DE FOE Crusoe (1850) II. 460 ‘What! he no hear you curse, swear, speak de great damn?’

damn, v.
[a. OF. dampne-r, damne-r, ad. L. damn{amac}re, dampn{amac}re, orig. to inflict damage or loss upon, to condemn, doom to punishment; taken early into F. in legal and theological use. Cf. Pr. dampnar, It. damnare.]

1. a. trans. To pronounce adverse judgement on, affirm to be guilty; to give judicial sentence against; = CONDEMN 1 (in part), 2. Obs.
a1300...
1559 Mirr. Mag., Tresilian xvii, I poore Tresilyan..was dampned to the galowes. 1611 SPEED Hist. Gt. Brit. VI. xlviii. 168 Let the Edict be dambd to eternal silence.

b. To condemn to a particular penalty or fate; to doom; = CONDEMN 3, 6. Obs.
a1300
....etc

JWB   Link to this

The Substance of the Chancellor's Speech:

'Those unquiet, restless Spirits in their own Bowels,...

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?co...

GrahamT   Link to this

"A fine way ... to persuade..."
I believe this is used in the ironic sense as in; "That's a fine way to behave" that my father used to say to me when I did something particularly stupid.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

At least one of the suspects had a sense of humor...Which King indeed?

Todd Bernhardt   Link to this

re: irony/sarcasm

I dunno, Graham, I can't think of other instances in the Diary where Sam does this. I think he's pretty literal in his writing...

JWB   Link to this

Coup plotter denouement

Not so sure the man in any way joking- Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done...

JWB   Link to this

"...their so much celebrated third of September..." from Chancellor's speech

Sept 3 is anniversary of Battle of Worchester, Charles I's last.

Bradford   Link to this

On this one I side with Graham, Todd: Pepys is as much as saying, "What a stupid way to try to persuade a godly person to do what you want him to."

language hat   Link to this

I agree with Graham and Bradford: seems like obvious irony. Pepys doesn't use it often, but that doesn't mean he's incapable of it.

Mary   Link to this

Yes, that's irony. Irony is one of the standard rhetorical figures that make up a good part of Sam's classical education and I join in agreeing that he uses it quite deliberately (instinctively?) here.

Pedro   Link to this

Meanwhile with the Fleet…

“...In the evening the Hector came in to us from Dover with Captain Ferras, my son Sydney being left in Kent at Scotts Hall with my Lady Carteret.”

(Journal of Edward Montagu edited by Anderson)

Pedro   Link to this

And De Ruyter…

“During the night a heavy north westerly gale scattered the whole fleet, with the result that next morning 80 ships were missing. It lasted for 2 days and notwithstanding all his efforts, De Ruyter had only 48 ships with him on the 1/10 September. Still the tempest continued…”

Pedro   Link to this

And more of De Ruyter…

I think the above date should read August 31st /September 10th, De Ruyter being plus 10 days…

“At noon on the 11th (1st English ), 37 warships, 2 fire ships, 2 East Indiamen and 6 other merchants reached the north side of Dogger Bank and made an attempt to collect the other ships. The effort was not successful, although the south side of Dogger Bank was searched by the 2 squadrons into which the remaining ships had been divided. Only a few of the missing craft, among them De Vries’ ship and a few other war and food ships, joined De Ruyter on the evening of the 13th. De Vries reported that the English were giving chase and were not far away with at least 60 ships…”

(Life of Admiral De Ruyter by Blok)

Michael Robinson   Link to this

discourse of Sir Philip Howard’s, with one of the plotting party ... and they make sport of it, only without any reproach, or he being anything ashamed of it! But it ended, I remember, at last, “But such a one (the plotter) did at last bid them remember that he had not told them what King he would be faithfull to.”

Seems to me that SP's making the point that Howard is a utter fool and that the plotter(s) are just using the interrogation to make fun of him and the others -- an early instance of Guards Officers living up to, or down to, caricature?

Michael Robinson   Link to this

Spoiler -- The Substance of the Chancellor’s Speech:

‘Those unquiet, restless Spirits in their own Bowels,…

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?co...

Domestic terrorism sponsored by foreigners, on the eve of an emotionally significant anniversary (Sept. 3 is the anniversary of Battle of Worchester per JWB above) always useful for gaining the sympathy of the legislature and obtaining a grant of additional oodles of cash for the ‘War effort.’

Samuel   Link to this

This bit amused me "sending away my girle Susan and other goods…".

dirk   Link to this

From the Carte Papers, Bodleian Library
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/projects...

Sir Thomas Clifford to Sandwich

Written from: Harwich
Date: 1 September 1665

Reports his conference with the Duke of York, who had previously seen his despatches to Lord Arlington. "I found him," says the writer, "entirely satisfied not only with your Highness' designing part, but also with Sir Thomas Tiddiman's conduct of the whole affair at Bergen." From York he proceeded to the Court at Salisbury and found there also "a good impression & esteem of the whole action,... the greatness of the attempt, the bravery of the thing, and the good conduct in bringing off every ship, hath quite swallowed up the loss of our men & the repulse". Adds that his mission to Copenhagen gives him full powers under the Great Seal to "conclude with that King." ...

CGS   Link to this

Looking thru the Assizes of Middlesex thru years of the 60's, one finds that the home land security is having a field day finding bad guys especially those of the Douay persuasion.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?co...

A. De Araujo   Link to this

"damn me"
I will be damned,or darned,werent the Anabaptists,Calvinists, who believed we were damned and saved only by the grace of God.

GrahamT   Link to this

Re: (God) Damn me.
As an expletive, it was/is blasphemous, even when euphemised by leaving off the "God". No religious person, whether Quaker, Anabaptist or Catholic would find that acceptable language. I suppose Sir Philip was trying to get a reaction out of the men and make them angry enough to recant their previous promises to be faithful to the King.
It appears to have worked in at least one case: “But such a one (the plotter) did at last bid them remember that he had not told them what King he would be faithfull to.”

Having recently read "The Plot Against Pepys", it appears that justice was often served by entrapping non-conformist suspects (including using torture and bribed witnesses) rather than investigating the truth of the matter.

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