Tuesday 4 November 1662

Lay long talking pleasantly with my wife in bed, it having rained, and do still, very much all night long. Up and to the office, where we sat till noon. This morning we had news by letters that Sir Richard Stayner is dead at sea in the Mary, which is now come into Portsmouth from Lisbon; which we are sorry for, he being a very stout seaman. But there will be no great miss of him for all that. Dined at home with my wife, and all the afternoon among my workmen, and at night to my office to do business there, and then to see Sir W. Pen, who is still sick, but his pain less than it was. He took occasion to talk with me about Sir J. Minnes’s intention to divide the entry and the yard, and so to keep him out of the yard, and forcing him to go through the garden to his house. Which he is vexed at, and I am glad to see that Sir J. Minnes do use him just as he do me, and so I perceive it is not anything extraordinary his carriage to me in the matter of our houses, for this is worse than anything he has done to me, that he should give order for the stopping up of his way to his house without so much as advising with him or letting of him know it, and I confess that it is very highly and basely done of him. So to my office again, and after doing business there, then home to supper and to bed.

30 Annotations

Bradford  •  Link

"Sir Richard Stayner is dead at sea in the Mary, which is now come into Portsmouth from Lisbon; which we are sorry for, he being a very stout seaman. But there will be no great miss of him for all that."

From David Q's background posting on the man: "A naval commander, he distinguished himself in the First Dutch War (1652-54) and was rear-admiral of the fleet in early 1660. . . . [He was] a friend and confidant of Mountagu, and in 1660 helped him in some electioneering in Dover. He was knighted by both Cromwell and again by Charles II".

No, he will not much be missed, despite this hard-won c.v.; nor will Pepys's old friend Luellen / Llewellyn, dead from the Plague; nor Minnes, nor the unusual young woman named Kate something whom Sam used to meet in the street, nor Tom's ex-fiancee, nor the admired Coventry, nor disappointing sister Pall, nor even Sam himself, except in a formal sort of way, had he not given himself, and all these others, earthly immortality; for if he had not done so, we would not have even known what we were missing.

Maurie Beck  •  Link

"But there will be no great miss of him for all that."

But I do miss him and all the other characters. And I miss myself as well, and I'm not even dead yet.

Pauline  •  Link

Yard and Garden.
The yard being the area within the building, inside the gate and surrounded by the building compound? The garden being the outer areas around the building?

They have somewhat different meanings in Am Eng out west here. Yard = grass (lawn) or beaten earth or concrete or whatever surrounding a house; garden = dug up area for growing flowers, shrubs, herbs, vegetables, whatever. We played in the yard and weeded and hoed in the garden.

Australian Susan  •  Link

OK. I have been trying to square up the information above about what the dastardly Sir J is doing to the curtileges of the Navy Office with the picture we have been given. And it just doesn't seem to work. Where is the garden in that picture? What exactly is Sir J blocking? What exactly are the "entry" [main gates?] and the yard? [public area between the houses the actual office?] Confused.

Terry F  •  Link

I gather that the "entry" is in the flat, inside the yard, which appears to encircle the office, which is in the middle; so to get to the office, Sir W. Penn will need to exit at the rear, circling to the front entrance that faces us. http://www.pepysdiary.com/static/img/indepth/20...

Does anyone agree with that?

dirk  •  Link

John Evelyn's diary today: Sir Carteret got married...

"I was invited to the Wedding of Sir Geo: Carteret the Tressurer of the Navy, & Kings Vice-Chamberlains Daughter married to Sir Nich: Slaning knight of the Bath, married by the Bish. of London in the Savoy chapell, after which was an extraordinary feast &c:"

Pauline  •  Link

'Does anyone agree with that?'

Yes, assuming the office is the detached central building and that it existed in 1662. So Mennes must be forward in the right wing of the building, blocking Penn further back? BUT, as Mennes has been after a room between him and Pepys, why don't his entry plans also block Pepys? But I too pictured Penn having to go out the "back" and come on around the front to get to the office.

(I assume the right wing as somewhere we discussed the gardens that ran off to the south towards Tower Hill.)

Also, we assume the individual residences rising from ground floor to roof; this may not be the case. Perhaps Mennes is ground floor and some, but his entrance was shared with Penn, whose residence was up some stairs.

Looks like Penn and Pepys are either side (or otherwise puzzled into) Mennes's residence.

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"But there will be no great missing of him for all that"
Is he being phylosophical? callous?anyway our man Sam is never boring.

CGS  •  Link

Men and their sodding turf wars. At this time most places of the better sort, that could or had been commanded one owner, would build the the buildings around a quadrangle [better known as quad for an amble around, before squaring off with chef]
would consist of a walk way around the periphery with four neat little plots for green relief having a St Georges cross for a walkway in the center.
Here the property was aquired by the Admiralty to be used as residences for its senior members and offices for the work that should be done. Save much on stabling and commuting costs while having lock on the members for emergencies. Now as everyone is squaring off to see to whom has the number one alpha role. So to the sodding turf wars and see who be seeding which door and who be getting mudded in the process.

Clement  •  Link

The Yard
I can't see how the image that Terry F. posted can possibly be contemperary to 1662. Sam has just added an upper story, and the construction within the navy yard seems more typically rambling than this picture of uniform row houses.
My guess is that this design was executed after some number of later fires; if not quite Georgian, at least later than the Stuarts.
Nonetheless, I think the general layout of homes versus office may well have been similar to this, for the reasons cited.
To further confuse arrangement, recall the infamous caning of Wayneman on Feb 28th, which includes "I bade Will get me a rod, and he and I called the boy up to one of the upper rooms of the Comptroller’s house towards the garden..." How did they get access to one of Mennes' upper rooms? Across the leads? What does "towards the garden" reveal?

It's tempting to collect these layout references and plot the different possibilities, but it's also tempting to do other things for the next 5 years. We need an intern in 17th C. architecture.

Joe  •  Link

"some types of happiness"

I think this goes under the catagory of "relief": Sir J. Minnes's difficulty with Sir W. Penn is evidence (for Pepys) that troubles originate in Minnes's character. Pepys feels he is off the hook, and bears little responsibility.

CGS  •  Link

too many syllables for me.... phylosophical...race of ..sophistical-captious, illogical, speciious or swine headed.. nah! just plain stubborn

Terry F  •  Link

The Mansard roof was popular in the period of the Navy Office

François Mansard
(Also spelled Mansart). French architect, born in Paris, probably of Italian stock, in 1598; died there, 1666. During at least the last thirty years of his life he exercised the greatest influence on the development of architecture. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09609a.htm

Terry F  •  Link

"one of the upper rooms of the Comptroller’s house towards the garden…”

Might "towards the garden" perhaps tell us that the upper room in question was one of those on the garden-side and not the yard-side of the Comptroller’s house?

Mary  •  Link

"very highly and basely done..."

Delightful juxtaposition of terms.

Michael Robinson  •  Link

Navy Office, Rebuilt 1674-5

THE NAVY OFFICE was built in Seething Lane in 1656 and was where Pepys lived and worked from 1660. It escaped the Great Fire thanks to his efforts but was destroyed by another fire in 1673 although rebuilt in 1674-5.

Therefore the print of 1714 we are agonising over is showing a building different from that inhabited, described and agonised over by Pepys.

Tony Eldridge  •  Link

"But there will be no great missing of him for all that"
= He was a nice chap but had no political clout or great family.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Interesting that Penn hasn't turned to Coventry as Mennes did when Pepys' remodeling blocked out his light. Would be interesting to know if Coventry has politely declined to be dragged further into these quarrels or if perhaps Penn's stock has dropped a bit with him...

The Fruits of Such Dealings, Sir John...

A short time later an angry horde of unpaid, starving seamen descends on the Office. Their attempt to petition/storm the Duke's office at Whitehall having been deflected by a panicky Jamie's assurance that they should find satisfaction by taking the matter up with his Naval Office people. He and Charlie scampering out the nearest door to seek Monk and military aid...

Penn and Pepys with their clerks are confronted by a tough, battered, and fearless seaman waving a chair leg...His mob of mates behind him, ready to tear limb from limb...

"All right!! Bastards, where's our pay?! The Duke said you'd have it...!"

Penn eyes Pepys, Pepys Penn...

"My friend." Penn beams benevolently. "You should be seeking our Comptroller who would handle such matters. In fact I'm puzzled, I believe he received a charge from the Duke the other day allowing him to distribute funds to your paymasters. Pepys, you saw the order?"

"Indeed, Sir Will. I can't understand why Sir John should have been so remiss as to..."

Angry howl... "Where's the...?!!!"

"I believe Sir John is in...

His back yard..." Penn frowns, pointing. "That way."

Sir John, in his newly-seized back yard, serenely unaware of approaching
doom, reads from the Sonnets...

"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day. Thou art more fair and more temp..."

"There!!! There's the one, mates!!!!"

Penn and Pepys watching from the side...Clerks naturally dispatched to seek any aid that might be somewhere, anywhere, about.

"He will be missed." Penn nods...Wincing a bit.

"Not for long." Pepys notes...

Terry F  •  Link

"Navy Office, Rebuilt 1674-5"; that of 1662 gone missing.

Michael Robinson, thank you for clarifying part of the problem we were having correlating the Diary with the Engraving. I say "part of the problem" on the assumption that the rebuild retained the basic ground-plan, including the distinction between the yard and the garden, the joined Houses and the Office; the mansard roof in the Engraving, uniform and FLAT as it is, would surely be a latter-day addition, and the "leads" on which the Pepys's strolled would be irretrievable except to the imaginations of those who miss them.

dirk  •  Link

The Gutenberg site has just released "Of the Orthographie and Congruitie of the Britan Tongue - A Treates, noe shorter than necessarie, for the Schooles", by Alexander Hume, ca. 1620, edited by our old friend Henry B. Wheatley.

(Interesting guide to the English language, roughly contemporary to Pepys.)

Full online HTML version:

Also available: "A Covnter-Blaste To Tobacco", by King James I, 1604.

Pauline  •  Link

Sam's first report of blocking the entry:
"I do hear that Sir J. Minnes is resolved to turn part of our entry into a room and to divide the back yard between Sir W. Pen and him, which though I do not see how it will annoy me much particularly, yet it do trouble me a little for fear it should, but I do not see how it can well unless in his desiring my coming to my back stairs, but for that I shall do as well as himself or Sir W. Pen, who is most concerned to look after it"

The new room appears to take out the yard entrances and put both Mennes and Penn's entrance on the back, or garden, side. It will take up some of the entry--to be read as the area inside the gate, the courtyard--leaving the rest of the entry open to the other residences.

Terry F  •  Link

What do "old" sea-dogs beached at desk-jobs do one to another?!

Penn, age 41, gets dissed by Mennes, age 63; in a way, Pepys, all of 29, a landlubber and in his element, is a bystander.

CGS  •  Link

"...What do “old” sea-dogs beached at desk-jobs do one to another?!..."
Pen would be reminded of that Fiassco that sidelined him by picking a small island that was only big enough for sugar cane and bananas whereas if he had succeeded in getting Hispanola for Cromwell, he would have his coffee, rice and a few hogs as well, but the swine of an army gen let him down.

Michael Robinson  •  Link

“Navy Office, Rebuilt 1674-5”; that of 1662 gone missing

Absent positive evedence of the old ground plan and/or its being retained would it not be safer to be agnostic on the issue.

All we know at present is that the old office contained the same elements, yard and garden; residential spaces somehow conjoined. The only information otherwise available "the northern part of a large house" suggests the ground plan was dissimilar:--

In a prior post Phil noted:-

"Latham’s Companion describes its location as “the northern section of a large house on the e. side of Seething Lane, a few doors south of its junction with Crutched Friars, with a courtyard opening onto the Lane and garden stretching from the Lane to the n.-w. corner of Tower Hill.”


Pauline  •  Link

Naval Office destroyed by fire 1673, having survived The Great Fire.
Seems Lord Brouncker's mistress had a mishap with a candle in her closet.

Tomalin describes the Navy Office at the time Sam moved in as:

"The Navy Office houses were in Seething Lane, just west of Tower Hill, in a very large, rambling building divided into five substantial residences and office accomodations, with a courtyard and a communal garden stretching north-west to the edge of Tower Hill. [Doesn't she mean stretching south east?] There was an entry gate, shut at night by the resident porter, making it an early gated community."

As we read today, the residences are occupied by Pepys, Batten, Penn and Mennes. I've no idea who is in the fifth residence. Anyone?

Australian Susan  •  Link

Isn't one of the houses empty? And this is where Sam stayed for part of the time his house was being renovated?

Peter  •  Link

Is John Davis still there? Remember the problem with Lady Davis bolting a door to prevent Sam's access to the leads back in 29-31 October 1660...?

Australian Susan  •  Link

Yes! That makes 5! And Sam stayed outside the Naval Office complex whilst his house was being refurbished (before he requisitioned Penn's house).

Pauline  •  Link

John Davis and his lovely wife left for Ireland, and the Battens took their place, as I remember it.

Now Batten on one side and Mennes on the other; and apparantly Penn beyond Mennes.

Maybe Peter means back when Sam first refurbished. I don't remember where he stayed then. Wasn't Elizabeth with his parents at Salisbury Court?

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