Tuesday 21 May 1661

Annotations

• N dirk on Sat 22 May 2004, 12:59am

  a commission for enquiry into some of the King

• N Paul Miller on Sat 22 May 2004, 01:19am

  “one of the greatest showers of rain fell that ever I saw”

  The Hevelius’s comet was seen in the spring of year 1661 over europe and returned again in spring of 2002. I’m sure this has nothing to do with the rain fall, it’s just interesting that Pepys could have looked at a comet that people in our time could have seen on it’s return trip in 2002.

• N Don on Sat 22 May 2004, 01:23am

  “…a commission for enquiry into some of the King

• N Australian Susan on Sat 22 May 2004, 01:48am

  “between 20 and 30 shillings”
  Doesn’t he know exactly how much he paid? Or is this just a colloqualism? Furthermore, if we do the times 90 sum, doesn’t 90 pounds seem excessive for a hat!
  Re the grammar - I took the brother to refer to James as Don did.

• N Pauline on Sat 22 May 2004, 01:48am

• N dirk on Sat 22 May 2004, 02:40am

  “I read that as meaning the King

• N dirk on Sat 22 May 2004, 02:59am

  expensive hat?

  Around 1600 a simple emigrant’s hat was priced at 3s. A coat at 2s/6d. Of course Sam’s hat would have to be far more expensive to keep up with his position (and to fit in with Sam’s precious velvet coat!). This new hat was probably a replacement for the one he lost on 30 April: “but my hat falling off my head at Newington into the water, by which it was spoiled”

  Prices:
  http://www.portsdown.demon.co.uk/mark.htm

• N vicente on Sat 22 May 2004, 03:37am

  Slingsbys, A one Sir Henry [Yorkshire gent]had his head removed for loyal service to the Royalist cause in ‘58. So may be the lands talked of, have significance in being once removed from the family, and sold to another, now establishing provenance of true ownership, and get lands back in the hands of the original owner?

• N vicente on Sat 22 May 2004, 03:42am

  Wet: down on the Colne, it is written by Our Rev Josslyn:
  May. 19. God good in many outward mercies, the wet and cold abated, weather(,) the King and Chancellor moderate in their speeches, speaking much of good nature the lord divert a storm, it was feared the act of indemnity would be unravelled etc. god merciful to us in the peace of the Sabbath. my soul bless him

  http://linux02.lib.cam.ac.uk/earlscolne/diary/70013080.htm

• N Pauline on Sat 22 May 2004, 04:09am

  “one Sir Henry [Yorkshire gent]had his head removed for loyal service to the Royalist cause in

• N vicente on Sat 22 May 2004, 04:26am

  “…went to my father

• N Mary on Sat 22 May 2004, 08:07am

  The cost of a hat.

  In London today, it would not be especially remarkable to have to pay

• N Pedro. on Sat 22 May 2004, 08:49am

  “to have

• N Hic Retearius on Sat 22 May 2004, 09:00am

  The Cost of a Hat

  Especially for a bespoke hat of beaver,

• N Roger Arbor on Sat 22 May 2004, 11:46am

  “Victualling-office (the first time that I ever knew where it was)”… anyone enlighten us as to exactly where? Up or down river from Seething Lane?

• N David A. Smith on Sat 22 May 2004, 01:14pm

  “to be made, and did buy a new hat, between 20 and 30 shillings”
  I think the context establishes that the hat has been commissioned, and of an expensive material, so (as Vicente, Mary and Hic have surmised) not only is the cost reasonable, it makes sense for it to be an estimate until the job is done.
  Remember, Sam only *pays* if he *likes* the resulting hat, so the hatter is taking a risk too …

• N Mary on Sat 22 May 2004, 02:27pm

  The Victualling Office.

  (per L&M Companion) lay east of Little Tower Hill and north of East Smithfield. The site became very crowded and access to the river was not easy. Therefore, after 1742 the whole caboodle (office, houses, bakeries, brewhouses, cooperages, store houses) was moved to Deptford.

• N Glyn on Sat 22 May 2004, 04:20pm

  “with Sir R. Slingsby (and Major Waters the deaf gentleman, his friend, for company

• N Sjoerd on Sat 22 May 2004, 04:55pm

  The yacht Katherine was the first of a series of yachts Charles had built.
  A yacht Katherine was sunk during the raid on the Medway in 1667, and a royal Yacht Katherine was used to transport the Princess Mary of Orange to Gravesend in 1689.
  I don’t know if these are all the same, in case they are there is a picture here http://web.onetel.net.uk/~sunhouse/Published_Chapters/William_and_Ann_/Katherine/katherine.html
  

• N Hic Retearius on Sat 22 May 2004, 09:04pm

  Sjoerd’s Reference

  Gaff rigged main, jibs on forestays, no tops’l yard; could we call her a cutter? We don’t see lee boards but she has a Dutch flavour somehow.

• N A. Hamilton on Sat 22 May 2004, 11:09pm

  Dutch flavor somehow

  I think its in that rounded hull line. I sailed a small rounded clinker-built lee board sloop in the Frisian lakes a few years ago that had a similar line.

• N Hic Retearius on Sun 23 May 2004, 06:19am

  Rounded hull line.

  Yes, maybe that’s it, Hamilton. As much it maybe the resulting low freeboard amidships more suited to inland waters.

  An English designer would want more freeboard ‘midships to make her a less wet ship in a seaway. Also, with these lines, on a wind she would loose “surface profile” even with a moderate heel as the lee side would go under right away and she would become more crank in an instant and much more of a capsize risk as a consequence. That clumsy great aftercastle wouldn’t help her stability. If, as well as all this, she has a flat bottom, her stability on a wind would be on a par with a barrel.

  She seems to have been moderately sparred and maybe stability concerns are the reason. The fore and aft rig and absence of a tops

• N Sjoerd on Sun 23 May 2004, 01:13pm

  Not Katherine yet.
  According to a note on http://www.pepysdiary.com/archive/1660/08/15/index.php this yacht is not the Katherine but the Jenny. This seems right because the treaty with Portugal, resulting in the marriage with Catherina of Braganza will not be signed until June 23rd, so it would have been a bit early to call this yacht Katherine.
  Does anyone know who “Jenny” was ?

• N dirk on Mon 24 May 2004, 03:29am

  who

• N Sjoerd on Mon 24 May 2004, 11:11pm

  There is a mention further on in the diary of a kings’yacht “Jemmy” that Pepys uses. To make things even more complicated.

  Jemmy could be a form of “James” … a bit strange though to use that for a boat. Anyone with access to Royal Navy sources for the period ?

• N dirk on Tue 25 May 2004, 02:29am

  “Jemmy” vs. “Jenny”

  I suspect this Jemmy is a transcription error for Jenny. In Sam’s shorthand “m” and “n” would look very much alike in careless writing (or trancribing) - and Jemmy would have sounded too disrespectful for James in this case I think.

  For a discussion of Sam’s shorthand, cfr.:
  http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/2428.php#c12955
  

• N dirk on Tue 25 May 2004, 03:38am

  “Jemmy” vs. “Jenny”

  I have to correct myself:

  “Charles’ first racing yacht was called “Jamie” after his illegitimate son, the Duke of Monmouth, and his last was called “Fubbs”, his nickname for his mistress, Louise de K

• N vicente on Tue 25 May 2004, 03:46am

  Re yacht see previous postings by using search on “Yacht” There are two boats ready for the Big race of Brothers J and C. There are about 7 dates involve plus comments and tags to pics.
  http://www.vaartips.nl/extra/statenjacht.htm
  

• N Wim van der Meij on Tue 25 May 2004, 05:36pm

  Re: Victualling Office.
  Warrington says about it: it was at the end of East Smithfield, according to Stow, and it occupied the site of the Abbey of St. Mary of the Graces, which had been founded by Edward III, to commemorate his escape from shipwreck; and was granted at the dissolution to Sir Arthur Darcy, who pulled it down. The Cooperage, a portion of the Victualling Office, was burnt 18th May 1687. The disaster is described in Raqlinson MSS., A171.

• N vicente on Tue 25 May 2004, 07:43pm

  Jemmey vs Jenney : any connection to Why the Kapitan in the anglo saxon navy calls his exec, Jemmy?
  Jemmy ” ‘ard te port”

• N Sjoerd on Wed 26 May 2004, 12:12am

  So, thanks dirk & vincent, when you know what to “Google” for you get a lot more information. “Jemmie” is an accepted form of “James” and i suppose if you can name one of your yachts “Fubbs” then “Jemmie” seems rather conventional.

  If I look at the pictures of these yachts i am surprised at the size of them: from the text and from the speed they were built you would think them small vessels, but they are serious naval vessels , and some of them were used for a remarkable period of time (the Katherine for instance for 127 years).

  Here are “Fubbs” and “Katherine”
  http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/ViewLargeImage.cfm?ID=BHC0979&letter=R and Mary
  http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/ViewLargeImage.cfm?ID=BHC0328

  This is from http://60.1911encyclopedia.org under “Yacht”:
  “In 1660 Charles II. was presented by the Dutch with a yacht named the ” Mary,” until which time the word “yacht” was unknown in England. The Merrie Monarch was fond of sailing, for he designed a yacht of 25 tons called the ” Jamie,” built at Lambeth in 1662, as well as several others later on. In that year the ” Jamie “was matched for 100 against a small Dutch yacht, under the duke of York, from Greenwich to Gravesend and back, and beat her, the king steering part of the timeapparently the first record of a yacht match and of an amateur helmsman. Mr Arthur H. Clark, in his History of Yachting (1904), traces the history of pleasure craft from 1600 to 1815, and gives an interesting illustrated account of the vachts belonging to Charles II.”

• N Australian Susan on Wed 26 May 2004, 06:29am

  What lovely pictures! Thank you, Sjoerd!

• N Phil on Wed 26 May 2004, 07:18pm

  “his brother”

  A little late to this, apologies. L&M say that the brother is “Henry Slingsby, Deputy-Master of the Mint.” That’s who the link goes through to… have I missed something?

• N vicente on Wed 26 May 2004, 09:07pm

  There is talk of brothers twice. First I do think is Slingsbys and getting his lands back from that rascal who bought it cheap during the confiscating of Royal supporters lands.
  The second I do read as Pett’s brother, the ship builder, building of a yacht to be better than the Gift of Holland. Then there is the other brother[Pett] building a rival for Charles’ little brother, so that the Royal pair can enjoy scattering the boats on his Tems, making wagers.

• N vicente on Wed 26 May 2004, 09:10pm

  Revision: Commisioner Pett builds one for Charles and it is his brother[Pett] that builds a version for Jimmy.

• N tc on Wed 26 May 2004, 10:04pm

  Ditto, Susan from Oz:

  Sjoerd, many thanks for the wonderful link. The picture of “Fubbs” & “Katherine” looks like a pair of America’s Cup yachts maneuvering before the start of a race; two large yachts owned by extremely rich individuals. Modern equivalents perhaps “Alinghi” and “Oracle” current America’s Cuppers?

  Truly the dawn of Yachting! (Capital “Y” yachting, as opposed to what we small boaters- on boats under 50 feet?!?- do…sailing…

  ~~~_/)_/)~~

• N dirk on Wed 26 May 2004, 10:48pm

  brothers - re Vicente & Phil

  Vicente, I’m not quite sure you’re reading is correct. The sentence states specifically “the King’s lands and houses” - so it doesn’t look like the King is evicting illegitimate owners from Slingsby’s brother previous property and returning it to him.

  It’s also good to know that, although many who returned with Charles II from the continent when he was put on the throne, were in the same shoes as Slingsby’s brother, and petitioned to the King for their former property, almost none of them got it back. - It would have been very unwise for Charles to make new enemies out of old enemies by chasing them from lands the ownership of which (illegitimate at it might be in origin) was now an established fact of life, when he needed their political cooperation. So I’m still inclined to go for a transcription error or similar.
  

• N Pauline on Wed 26 May 2004, 11:00pm

• N Sjoerd on Thu 27 May 2004, 03:05pm

  Thanks for the capital G in Gift, Vicente… we dutch are still a bit sensitive about giving away expensive things… ( see http://www.pepysdiary.com/archive/1660/11/08/index.php#c8550 )

  All for nothing, too (sulk). ;-))