Tuesday 29 November 1664

Up, and with Sir W. Batten to the Committee of Lords at the Council Chamber, where Sir G. Carteret told us what he had said to the King, and how the King inclines to our request of making us Commissioners of the Prize office, but meeting him anon in the gallery, he tells me that my Lord Barkely is angry we should not acquaint him with it, so I found out my Lord and pacified him, but I know not whether he was so in earnest or no, for he looked very frowardly. Thence to the Parliament House, and with Sir W. Batten home and dined with him, my wife being gone to my Lady Sandwich’s, and then to the office, where we sat all the afternoon, and I at my office till past 12 at night, and so home to bed.

This day I hear that the King should say that the Dutch do begin to comply with him. Sir John Robinson told Sir W. Batten that he heard the King say so. I pray God it may be so.

23 Annotations

First Reading

Terry F  •  Link

On behalf of Dirk Van de putte, from the Carte Calendar

Lords of the Council of England to Lord Deputy & Privy Council of Ireland
Written from: [Whitehall]

Date: 29 November 1664

Shelfmark: MS. Carte 33, fol(s). 723
Document type: Copy

An Order for the stay & securing of all ships, belonging to the States General of the United Provinces of the Netherlands, is herewith communicated for promulgation in Ireland.

JWB  •  Link


Forward in Sam's mind from Sunday's Psalm singing?

Terry Foreman  •  Link

Froward \Fro"ward\, a. [Fro + -ward. See Fro, and cf. Fromward.]
Not willing to yield or compIy with what is required or is reasonable; perverse; disobedient; peevish; as, a froward child.
[1913 Webster]

A froward man soweth strife. --Prov. xvi.28.
[1913 Webster]

A froward retention of custom is as turbulent a thing as innovation. --Bacon.

Syn: Untoward; wayward; unyielding; ungovernable: refractory; obstinate; petulant; cross; peevish. See Perverse. --
Fro"ward*ly, adv. -- Fro"ward*ness, n.
[1913 Webster]

Alan Bedford  •  Link

Interesting that Sam says he couldn't tell whether or not he had pacified Baron Berkeley, because of Berkeley's (presumably) cross expression. If it's not obvious to Sam, perhaps the expression was Berkeley's version of a poker face.

cgs  •  Link

for ancient meanings
1 froward, a., adv., prep. *
2 fro..ward * found in froward, a., adv., prep.
3 froward, v. *
4 fro..ward * found in -ward
[Early ME. f. fra, FRO + -WARD. Cf. FROMWARD.]

A. adj. (Not now in colloquial use.)

1. Disposed to go counter to what is demanded or what is reasonable; perverse, difficult to deal with, hard to please; refractory, ungovernable; also, in a wider sense, bad, evilly-disposed, ‘naughty’. (The opposite of toward.)
a1300 ...
1625 BACON Ess., Innovations (Arb.) 527 A Froward Retention of Custome, is as turbulent a Thing, as an Innouation.
1689-90 TEMPLE Ess., Poetry Wks.

1731 I. 249 When all is done, Human Life is, at the greatest and the best, but like a froward Child, that must be play'd with and humour'd a little to keep it quiet till it falls asleep.

2. Of things: a. Adverse, unfavourable, untoward; difficult to deal with, refractory. Of shape (cf. B. 2): Ill-formed, ugly (obs.).

b. In later use only as fig. of sense 1 (said, e.g., of fortune): Perverse, ill-humoured.
a1300 ....
1576 FLEMING Panopl. Epist. 120 To take his froward fortune and untoward luck with..patience.
1756 C. LUCAS Ess. Waters III. 213 It has been my froward fate to have too much.

3. quasi-n. A froward person or thing. Obs.
a1529 SKELTON P. Sparowe 779 Our language is so rusty, So cankered, and so full Of frowardes.

1581 J. BELL Haddon's Answ. Osor. 266b, Through the cankerd peevishnes of wayward frowardes.

B. adv. Obs.

1. In a direction that leads away from the person or thing under consideration; = FROMWARD.

2. fig. Untowardly; perversely. froward shapen = misshapen (cf. FROM-SHAPEN).1580

C. prep. (In a direction) away from; = FROMWARD. Also in form frowards. Obs. (or arch.)
as a verb only entree
trans. To make froward.
1627-47 FELTHAM Resolves I. xxxvi. 119 Vexations when they daily billow upon the minde, they froward even the sweetest soul, and..turn it into spleen and testinesse

frowardly, adv
In a froward manner; perversely; adversely. (Now chiefly arch. in Biblical phrases.)

.1645 MILTON Tetrach. Wks. (1847) 211 Finding the misbeliever not frowardly affected.
1688 S. PENTON Guardians Instr. 71, I once dealt with him very Frowardly, and ask'd him plainly, How [etc.]

Terry Foreman  •  Link

In the House of Commons this day -- just before Ways and Means for paying or the war are discussed: another ambitious project?

Bristoll, &c. Rivers.

Ordered, That the Bill for making Rivers navigable from Bristoll to London, be read the First time on Thursday next.

This appears to be an early vision of what became the Kennet and Avon canal

Robert Gertz  •  Link

"...my Lord Barkely is angry we should not acquaint him with it..."

Where the hell's my cut, Pepys?!

andy  •  Link

King’s Commissioner seduced married woman in job - offer scandall


“Did what he would with her” in blind alehouse


“No job offer” says Navy Office


By Elizabeth Pepys
London, Daily Starr, 29 November 1664

A young married woman told the King’s Court how she had “pleasured” a Trinity House Commissioner in a blind alehouse in Spitalfields in return for his promise of a better job for her husband.

But after he had "done what he would" with her, there was no job forthcoming, the Court heard today.

The young woman, Mrs B., told the Court that she had met the philanderer three weeks ago at the Pembleton Arms in London's East End...

Ruben  •  Link

soory to say that but if you judge Pepys by your standards you are doing an injustice. He is not an American President!
In his time and place mores were different. The point in commenting his daily entries is found somewhere else, I think.

Bradford  •  Link

Neat encapsulation, Andy, of the difference between Pepys’s day and ours. I propose we should make ‘froward’ a colloquial adjective again: this very morning I have encountered a froward Internet connection, a froward bank employee, a froward package delivery service, and a froward headache.
As for m’Lud’s facial expression, Southerners would say, ‘Sam ain’t gonna make nothin’ offa him [underscore].’

cgs  •  Link

Morals then and now, nothing has changed, then some ignored them, of course they could do as they pleased as the leader had the rules bent to please his whims which pleased his supporters, the others left in disgust for foreign parts, or just let the groaners go around moaning that the world is ending etc.
Now the moral watchers have a bigger say so for the time being, but there be just as many who would like the freedoms of Charles II gave his band of merry men, the rules of conduct i.e. the ten commandments have been debated over a few centuries from when they issued in stone in the wilderness.

By judging others we may understand our own foibles.

The world be like an iceberg, we see only the visible section not the under side.

Those that comment do not fully represent those that read and ingest, but like the empty barrel, the one that makes the most noise is the one that gets the reaction.
First law of nature: every action gets a reaction.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Sounded like just the facts to me. But Bagwell needs a better patron, one who can deliver the goods for services rendered, no interminable waiting. I would suggest trying Sandwich.

Of course maybe the Bagwells have already considered their options…

“Sir John Minnes?”

“Uh, yes…Miss…?”

“Molly Bagwell, sir. My husband works for the Navy at Deptford?”

“Ah…Yes. Certainly. Philip Bagswell (indeed), yes…”

“William, Sir John...Bagwell.”

“Of course… And, as all of our fine staff of workers at Portsmouth…”

“Deptford, Sir John.”

“Deptford…Are as my children to me, what can I do for such a dear young thing as you?”

“Well, you see Sir John…Mr. Pepys and Sir William Batten…And Sir William Penn…”

“And Penn?”

“…Had promised me…When I stopped by to speak with each of them…”

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Seriously it's interesting to consider the change in attitudes. Actually Pepys is well aware he is committing a reprehensible act, adultery, which if publicly exposed might expose a man of his social standing (not quite enough to thumb nose at the social mores; tempting enough as a target for opponents of the King who dare not strike too high) could result in his downfall. But for us, the real issue is one he and his contemporaries might view differently. He is using a position of power to abuse people of less power. Nowadays we would generally not punish adultery as severely but we would (in public at least) not tolerate Sam abusing the Bagswells as he is. However innocent or complicit William and his wife are in this little game, in our world a Bagwell appearing in public with proof of Sam's actions could seek redress. In his and Sam's world, it's taken for granted that a powerful man can generally, if he acts with some discretion and doesn't embarass the King too much or raise powerful enemies, do as he pleases with his lessers. Of course there would be some comment...Religious types and old friends of Sam of more egalitarian, republican tastes might scorn him, the King and court might if sufficiently embarassed, grumble at him and slap his wrist, but the adultery would be the major crime, not the abuse of a less powerful man and woman.

Ruben  •  Link

thank you Robert for your comment. I think you are right.

cgs  •  Link

A water path from west of England, Bristol, to London was via the the English channel and Lands End and not ending up on the Scilly Isles, with all the weather problems that created havoc with profitable trade.
and all they had to do was dig a ditch three to five miles long to join the Avon to the Thames.!!!!
Ah! that hill?

From that idea argued in the Houses to final birth took another 150 years .

"The idea of an east-west waterway link across southern England was first mooted in Elizabethan times based on the fact that the Avon and Thames are only 3 miles (4.8 km) apart at one point. The sea route between Bristol and London was hazardous during the 18th and early 19th centuries, because Atlantic storms and the rugged coast line took their toll on the small coastal sailing ships of the day, and also because a succession of conflicts with France and her allies, frequently made British cargo ships navigating the English channel, the prey of both privateers and warships of the French navy.[2]

Robert Gertz  •  Link

lost part of a sentence there somehow..."which if publicly exposed might expose a man of his social standing (not quite enough to thumb nose at the social mores; tempting enough as a target for opponents of the King who dare not strike too high) to ridicule and could result in his downfall."

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Perhaps there's the attraction of the game...Not so long ago Pepys was the little bug, lost in the the turmoil of the Commonwealth's fall, fearful of being squashed. Now, he has the chance to shove "little people" like the Bagwells about. Not pretty, but human I guess.

cgs  •  Link

"..chance to shove “little people”.."
It be normal [alpha].
All animals like to explore the limits of the boundaries of their orbits of influence whether they be physical or mental, like marking the limit with a wall of some kind or leave trail of personal odor, see if they will belly up, always waiting for the reaction to see if they can make their physical or emotional territory or mental capacity larger so that they can make the other become their satellite.

By telling everybody to keep their allotted status [Station] and not be too big for ones boots, kept many from rising to their level of incompetence.

Here London was booming , growth and wealth every where, so many can rise, and strut till cut down to size.

Second Reading

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"Now, he has the chance to shove "little people" ... about." It's interesting reading these comments in the time of #Me Too. I know -- no current political references!

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

That expensive new red outfit is getting lots of wear. It was a good investment. I still think he either looked like Elvis or Santa.

Bill  •  Link

"for he looked very frowardly"

FROWARD, peevish, fretful, surly.
---N. Bailey. An universal etymological English dictionary, 1734

Gerald Berg  •  Link

Why are we talking about the Bagley’s? Did Andy just do a spoiler? Do I have to think less of Sam so soon with regards the (as yet?) merely bad handled Bagley’s?

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