Wednesday 17 August 1664

Up, and going to Sir W. Batten to speak to him about business, he did give me three bottles of his Epsum water, which I drank and it wrought well with me, and did give me many good stools, and I found myself mightily cooled with them and refreshed.

Thence I to Mr. Honiwood and my father’s old house, but he was gone out, and there I staid talking with his man Herbert, who tells me how Langford and his wife are very foul-mouthed people, and will speak very ill of my father, calling him old rogue in reference to the hard penniworths he sold him of his goods when the rogue need not have bought any of them. So that I am resolved he shall get no more money by me, but it vexes me to think that my father should be said to go away in debt himself, but that I will cause to be remedied whatever comes of it.

Thence to my Lord Crew, and there with him a little while. Before dinner talked of the Dutch war, and find that he do much doubt that we shall fall into it without the money or consent of Parliament, that is expected or the reason of it that is fit to have for every warr.

Dined with him, and after dinner talked with Sir Thomas Crew, who told me how Mr. Edward Montagu is for ever blown up, and now quite out with his father again; to whom he pretended that his going down was, not that he was cast out of the Court, but that he had leave to be absent a month; but now he finds the truth.

Thence to my Lady Sandwich, where by agreement my wife dined, and after talking with her I carried my wife to Mr. Pierce’s and left her there, and so to Captain Cooke’s, but he was not at home, but I there spoke with my boy Tom Edwards, and directed him to go to Mr. Townsend (with whom I was in the morning) to have measure taken of his clothes to be made him there out of the Wardrobe, which will be so done, and then I think he will come to me.

Thence to White Hall, and after long staying there was no Committee of the Fishery as was expected. Here I walked long with Mr. Pierce, who tells me the King do still sup every night with my Lady Castlemayne, who he believes has lately slunk a great belly away, for from very big she is come to be down again.

Thence to Mrs. Pierce’s, and with her and my wife to see Mrs. Clarke, where with him and her very merry discoursing of the late play of Henry the 5th, which they conclude the best that ever was made, but confess with me that Tudor’s being dismissed in the manner he is is a great blemish to the play. I am mightily pleased with the Doctor, for he is the only man I know that I could learn to pronounce by, which he do the best that ever I heard any man.

Thence home and to the office late, and so to supper and to bed.

My Lady Pen came hither first to-night to Sir W. Pen’s lodgings.

27 Annotations

First Reading

Paul Chapin  •  Link

"he is the only man I know that I could learn to pronounce by"
That is, Pierce has the most prestigious English pronunciation Sam has heard, the only person whose speech Sam considers superior to his own.

Pedro  •  Link

"I am mightily pleased with the Doctor, for he is the only man I know that I could learn to pronounce by, which he do the best that ever I heard any man.

And us Sam, for all that Court gossip.

bitter o salt  •  Link

then the real Mc Coy now just tap water with a name.
"... bottles of his Epsum water, which I drank and it wrought well with me, ..."

cape henry  •  Link

"...who tells me how Langford and his wife are very foul-mouthed people..." In the modern sense this would indicate people who use a lot of profanity or other incivility, but I take it here Pepys means that the Langfords speak 'foully' of others.

bitter o salt  •  Link

foule mouthed , it be straight from the Bard.

OED:

Of persons and their utterances: Using obscene, profane, or scurrilous language.
1596 SHAKES. 1 Hen. IV, III. iii. 122 Like a foule-mouth'd man as hee is. 1655 FULLER Ch. Hist. IX. vii. §17 Those foule mouth'd papers like Blackmoors did all look alike.

Terry F  •  Link

"Thence to Mrs. Pierce's, and with her and my wife to see Mrs. Clarke, where with [Dr. Clarke] very merry discoursing of the late play of Henry the 5th, which they conclude the best that ever was made, but confess with me that Tudor's being dismissed in the manner he is is a great blemish to the play."

confirming SP 's review of Saturday 13 August about the play "having but one incongruity, or what did, not please me in it, that is, that King Harry promises to plead for Tudor to their Mistresse, Princesse Katherine of France, more than when it comes to it he seems to do; and Tudor refused by her with some kind of indignity, not with a difficulty and honour that it ought to have been done in to him."
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Very merry to agree about such matters!

Jesse  •  Link

"learn to pronounce"

I'm thinking it might be along Johnson's 'v. To speak with confidence or authority,' rather than the more modern(? or common) 'say clearly, correctly, or in a given manner.'

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"Lady Castlemayne who he believes has latelly slunk a great belly away"
to slink:to be born prematurelly;used mostly for cattle.

jeannine  •  Link

August 17 From the "Navy White Book" portion of the "Samuel Pepys and the Second Dutch War" edited by Robert Latham August 17.1664. Lightness of the King's weight in store. Mr Bodham becoming clerk of the ropeyard at Woolwich in the room of Mr Falconer, who is dead, he begun his office with the trying of the King's weights there, which hath not been in four years before; that is, since the King came first in; and in this time he finds (as by his letter of this date) that in 19 cwt they want 33 lb. and ½ oz. Which answers to above 35 lb, to 20 cwt or a ton. Which at 43£ medium (and more than that we have lost us, one sort with another, since the King's coming in) it hath lost us 15s. upon every ton of hemp. Besides the loss of weight in the spinner's day's work, which he computes together in these four years time hath lost the King about 500£, but I believe much more. And the like I fear in the other yards.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Is the play referring to Owen Tudor? The one, if I remember right, who later was believed to have become Queen Katherine's lover and more or less second husband after Henry V bit the dust?

***
Interesting gossip on the Pierce Channel. Seems unlikely Lady C would find risking an abortion to be necessary, given that she's had children by the King and he seems to have no problem with providing for them, so one would assume a miscarriage excepting that she's recovered rather quickly.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

"Sam'l?!"

"Hmmn...?"

"Look at this!" Bess points from coach to large placard boards hanging from rows of men parading in the crowded street.

"Drink...Epsom...Water...The Choice...Of the Best." Sam reads from the first man.

"Well?"

"Look!" Bess points again.

"Clerk of the Acts, Samuel Pepys says..."

Hmmn?! He sees the third man now...

"...'When I need to...' Damn that Batten!! I might have known!!"

"It's awful, Sam'l!"

"Monstrous. I'll speak to Batten at once."

Hmmn. Wonder what he gets for obtaining such testimonials?

***

Bradford  •  Link

"he is the only man I know that I could learn to pronounce by, which he do the best that ever I heard any man": I don't know---that "by" makes it sound as though it pertains to pronunciation, though what standard might Pepys have used to judge against? (No Received or BBC in those days.) Might someone check if perhaps the word's meanings at this time might include "to enunciate," i.e., speak with audible clarity?

bitter o salt  •  Link

my" hard penniworths " on "...for he is the only man I know that I could learn to pronounce by, which he do the best that ever I heard any man...."
my take be 'with authority '
not articulation with plums in mouth.

long OED so one can form thy own opinion.
Pronounce [< Anglo-Norman pronouncer, pronouncier, Anglo-Norman and Middle French pronuncer, pronuncier, Middle French prononcier, Middle French, French prononcer to proclaim, make known, declare (early 12th cent. in Anglo-Norman), to utter, articulate (speech sounds, words) (c1225 in Old French), to utter or declare (a sentence, ruling, opinion) ..

with authority (13th cent. in Old French; freq. in legal use),

to recite (a text) (second half of the 14th cent.), to utter or articulate (sounds, words, sentences) in a specified manner (second half of the 14th cent. in prononcer bien), (reflexive) to utter or avow one's opinions or intentions (1795) and its etymon post-classical Latin pronunciare (Vetus Latina), variant of classical Latin pr{omac}nunti{amac}re to proclaim, announce, to affirm, declare, to state as a fact, assert, to pass judgement, to utter, speak, to utter in a given way, to recite, declaim < pr{omac}- PRO- prefix1 + nunti{amac}re to announce (see NUNCIATION n.). Cf. Old Occitan pronunciar (second half of the 13th cent.; also prononciar; Occitan prononciar), Catalan pronunciar (1272), Spanish pronunciar (first half of the 13th cent.), Portuguese pronunciar (13th cent), Italian pronunziare (c1300; also pronunciare).]

I. Senses relating to declaration or assertion.

1. a. intr. To make a formal, considered, or authoritative statement or assertion; to declare a ruling, judgement, or opinion (on or upon a matter); to pass judgement. Freq. with for (also in favour of) or against. ..

1651 T. HOBBES Leviathan II. xxvi. 146 Twelve men of the common People..pronounce simply for the Complaynant, or for the Defendant. 1699 R. BENTLEY Diss. Epist. Phalaris (new ed.) 343 Cicero himself..seems to stand Neuter, and pronounces on no side.

b. trans. To utter, declare, or deliver (a sentence, judgement, ruling, opinion, etc.) formally; to proclaim or announce authoritatively or officially. Also with clause as object.

1660 F. BROOKE tr. V. Le Blanc World Surveyed 135 Then the first Prince, whose office it is, pronounces with a loud voice, that it is but necessary they should have a Prince to Govern and Rule them.
2. trans. To affirm, assert, state authoritatively or definitely; to declare as one's opinion, assessment, or conclusion, or as a known fact.

a. With object and complement, or object and infinitive.
1613 S. PURCHAS Pilgrimage (1614) 64 The Oracle of Apollo, pronounced the Chaldæans and Hebrewes to be only wise.

b. With clause as object, or (less commonly) with simple object.
a1631 J. DONNE Serm. (1956) VIII. 372 Do not pronounce..that every man is in an errour, that thinkes not just as thou thinkest.
3. trans.

a. To proclaim, announce, make known, declare aloud; to tell, report. Now rare or merged in other senses.

b. Of a statement: to have (a particular meaning or significance); to assert; to signify. Also intr. Obs.
1610 J. DONNE Pseudo-martyr xii. 390 This act, (of the goodnes or badnes whereof this Proposition pronounces nothing).

4. trans. (refl.). To utter or avow one's opinions or intentions; to declare oneself. ....1801

II. Senses relating to the act of speech.

5. trans.

a. To give utterance to; to utter, speak, articulate (a word or words); ..to make or produce (a vocal sound) (obs.). Also intr.
When used with reference to the ritual or ceremonial utterance of words the sense is not easily distinguished from sense 1b.

1612 J. BRINSLEY Ludus Lit. x. 151 You are to vtter each word leasurely and treatably; pronouncing euery part of it, so as euery one may write..as fast as you speake. 1667 MILTON Paradise Lost IX. 553 Language of Man pronounc't By Tongue of Brute

b. With adverb, adverbial phrase, or complement indicating the particular mode of pronunciation of a letter, word, etc. ...?1533

1650 R. WITHERS tr. O. Bon Descr. Grand Signor's Seraglio 7 Bagno's. [margin] Bathes or hot-houses; it must be pronounced Banios.

6. a. trans. To deliver, declaim, or recite in a specified manner. Also intr. Obs.
1560 J. DAUS tr. J. Sleidane Commentaries f. cccxlii, To se the priest..standing at the aultare, pronouncing al thinges in a strange language.

b. intr. To deliver a sermon or address; to preach. Obs. rare.
1663 A. COWLEY Cutter of Coleman-St. IV. v. 46 Brother Abednego, will you not pronounce this Evening tide before the Congregation of the Spotless in Coleman-street?

[< PRONOUNCE v. Cf. French {dag}prononce pronunciation (1605), and also Italian pronunzia pronunciation (1516; also pronuncia), post-classical Latin pronuncia opinion, judgement (in an undated document in Du Cange). Cf. earlier PRONOUNCEMENT n., PRONOUNCING n., PRONUNCIATION n.]

1. Utterance, delivery; = PRONUNCIATION n. 1a.
2. A statement, a declaration; = PRONOUNCEMENT n. 1.

Cum Grano Salis  •  Link

my mis guided thoughts: Pronounce: , Samuell likes Dr Pearse's pronouncements or solid opinions.

Carl in Boston  •  Link

Boston Pepys Party
You are all invited to a Boston Pepys Party on Sept 15, 2007 at Ye Olde Union Oyster House, 2 PM to 4 PM, near Faneuil Hall in Boston, Mass, USA. I will be there with a picture of Samuel Pepys at my booth. I hope others will show up too. My cell phone is 781-521-4272 that we may further consult. This is my invention without knowing anyone else, but I know you're out there with your ears on, good buddies. We can salute Sam with raw oysters and ale, or other food if you like, and discuss our favorite diarist.

I just heard from a Pepysian of the finest feather, who will be there at the Union Oyster House, so that makes two of us and this is a happening for sure.
We will have the reading of the day from the Diary as part of the party. If the Oyster House will let us light our candle brought for the purpose (a few dollars to the waitress may do the trick), we'll be able to say we read the diary by candle light.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Thanks for setting it up Carl. I posted on the social group but in case you don't head there, we'll try if we go to Boston to see the family this Sept. Otherwise perhaps those in range of Atlanta would like to try the Shakespeare Tavern here. Gay can probably get her friends there to announce our presence in periwig. Anyway best settled on the social group and/or email me...Good luck with Boston, Carl.

Paul Chapin  •  Link

pronounce
Jesse's and Salty's notes make it clear that there's more to this than I realized when I wrote my earlier annotation. However, after studying the OED material Mr. Salt has provided, I believe my first thought was correct, that Sam was referring to Pierce's diction rather than the speech act he was performing.

Reason: "pronounce" in the sense of 'declare authoritatively' is not a verb that admits of adverbs describing the quality of the act ("well", "best", "badly"). It has this property in common with similar verbs such as "assert" or "declare". You would not say "He asserted that she was the one in charge, but he did so poorly," or "The founding fathers declared their independence from England very well." And the surviving uses of "pronounce" in this sense behave similarly: you would not hear someone after a wedding saying that "The minister pronounced them man and wife quite well."

On the other hand, "pronounce" in the sense of 'plums in mouth' does frequently appear with such adverbs, and that is how Sam uses it here.

Cum Grano Salis  •  Link

Slink/slunk /slonk slank;
"...who he believes has lately slunk a great belly away, for from very big she is come to be down again..."
slunk to wade in mire
OED:[Of doubtful origin: cf. Da. dial. slånk, slunk a hollow or depression in the ground, and MLG. -slunc, LG. slunk, G. dial. schlunk, schlonk gullet, gorge, abyss.]

(See later quots. and cf. SLUNK n.)
The Eng. Dial. Dict. also records the word from Kent.

intr. To wade in mud or mire.
17.. RAMSAY To W. Starrat 28 Feckfu' folk can..slunk thro' moors, and never fash their mind.

b. transf. An illegitimate child; a bastard.

1702 COMBERBACH in Byron & Elms Life 391 (Cent.), What did you go to London for but to drop your slink?
[var. of SLONK n.]

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

re: Lady C

Could it be that Sam's reporting gossip not of an abortion, but that Lady C -- in an effort to keep the King's favor -- has dieted quite successfully, dropping a bunch of post-partum pounds? (Which she now can carefully put back on supping with the King each night...)

Cum Grano Salis  •  Link

Slunk: most likely just a mis carriage:
no justice:

Cum Grano Salis  •  Link

From page 170/171 TableEliza Picard
"the Difeafes and Cafualities this week"
Abortive 5
Still borne 17
Stone 2
tyeeth 121
childbed 42
Christened 176

Gabi  •  Link

Up until now I have been only reading, if regularly and years behind. Till the good Doctor and learning how to pronounce:
"Thence to Mrs. Pierce's, and with her and my wife to see Mrs. Clarke, where with him and her very merry discoursing of the late play of Henry the 5th (...) I am mightily pleased with the Doctor, for he is the only man I know that I could learn to pronounce by" Since James Pearse the surgeon was not part of the party gathering at Mrs Clarke's, the doctor with the good pronunciation and/or authority can only be Dr Timothy Clarke, the husband. Am I the only one to read the passage this way?

Second Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"Since James Pearse the surgeon was not part of the party gathering at Mrs Clarke's, the doctor with the good pronunciation and/or authority can only be Dr Timothy Clarke, the husband. Am I the only one to read the passage this way?"

Keen reading, Gabi! I'll join you.

Chris Squire UK  •  Link

Re: ' . . very foul-mouthed people . . '

‘foul-mouthed, adj. Of persons and their utterances: Using obscene, profane, or scurrilous* language.
. . 1655 T. Fuller Church-hist. Brit. ix. 193 Those foule mouth'd papers, like Blackmoors, did all look alike . .

* scurrilous, adj. < French . . ‘Using such language as only the licence of a buffoon can warrant’ (Johnson); characterized by coarseness or indecency of language, esp. in jesting and invective; coarsely opprobrious or jocular.

scurrilously adv. in a scurrilous manner; †after the manner of a buffoon.
. . 1666 S. Pepys Diary 17 Oct. (1972) VII. 327 Heard the Duke discourse, which he did mighty scurrilously, of the French . . ‘

(OED)

Chris Squire UK  •  Link

Re: ’ . . he believes has lately slunk a great belly away . . ’

‘slink, v. < Old English slincan . .
. . 3. a. Of animals, esp. cows: To bear or bring forth (young) prematurely or abortively . .
1640 J. Gower tr. Ovid Festivalls iv. 91 Beasts slunk their young with most untimely throws.

b. With away: To reduce by miscarriage.
1664 S. Pepys Diary 17 Aug. (1971) V. 245 Lady Castlemayne, who he believes hath lately slunk a great belly away.’

Background Lurker  •  Link

The correct link for Charlotte_Lee:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha…

Charlotte was Charles' favourite child. She "rivaled her mother in beauty, but was far unlike her in every other respect." Charlotte was married at thirteen and had her first of eighteen children at fourteen.

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