Saturday 17 May 1662
Upon a letter this morning from Mr. Moore, I went to my cozen Turner’s chamber, and there put him drawing a replication to Tom Trice’s answer speedily. So to Whitehall and there met Mr. Moore, and I walked long in Westminster Hall, and thence with him to the Wardrobe to dinner, where dined Mrs. Sanderson, the mother of the maids, and after dinner my Lady and she and I on foot to Pater Noster Row to buy a petticoat against the Queen’s coming for my Lady, of plain satin, and other things; and being come back again, we there met Mr. Nathaniel Crew at the Wardrobe with a young gentleman, a friend and fellow student of his, and of a good family, Mr. Knightly, and known to the Crews, of whom my Lady privately told me she hath some thoughts of a match for my Lady Jemimah. I like the person very well, and he hath 2000l. per annum. Thence to the office, and there we sat, and thence after writing letters to all my friends with my Lord at Portsmouth, I walked to my brother Tom’s to see a velvet cloak, which I buy of Mr. Moore. It will cost me 8l. 10s.; he bought it for 6l. 10s., but it is worth my money. So home and find all things made clean against to-morrow, which pleases me well. So to bed.
24 Annotations
First Reading
Glyn • Link
Mr Knightly sounds like someone from a novel by Jane Austen: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife. However little known the feelings or views of such a man may be on his first entering a neighbourhood, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the surrounding families, that he is considered as the rightful property of some one or other of their daughters."
To recap what contributors have previously told us: Mr Knightly's income of 2,000 pounds a year would be now worth, very roughly 180,000 pounds a year ($US quarter of a million), which means he would now be a multi-millionaire to generate that level of income. The Montagus are relatively poor, and Lady Jemima has to watch the housekeeping but Lord Montagu is extremely powerful.
Jem is 15, she can't hold her head up properly (she's had operations on her neck), and Pepys is very fond of her in a fatherly sort of way.
Is brother Tom the tailor now in the second-hand clothes business, or was this normal for tailor shops at the time? Anyway, they seem to have ended their recent quarrel.
Leslie Katz • Link
A Replication
SP sued TT in the Court of Chancery: see, for example, the entry for 16 Nov 1661. His initiating process was called a "bill". TT defended the action: see, for example, the entry for 8 Dec 1661. TT's defence was called an "answer". Now Pepys is having drawn up a reply to the answer. His reply is called a "replication". It seems to have been a formal document only, merely saying, in effect, that the suing party denies the sued party's defence.
dirk • Link
"It will cost me 8l. 10s.; he bought it for 6l. 10s."
170 s. sales price
130 s. cost price
31% profit over cost price (for family - undoubtedly the sales price for outsiders would have been higher)
8£ 10 s in 1662 would be (roughly) equivalent to £ 695.92 now (2002), according to the conversion engine at
http://eh.net/hmit/ppowerbp/
Not exactly a cheap velvet cloak, and not exactly a cheap present…
Robert Gertz • Link
Tomorrow? C'mon Sam'l, tell us now. What's up? Big party for Queen's arrival day?
Ah, would a man could know what the outcome of the day will be...But it sufficeth that the day doth end and then the outcome is known...(no, that is not an exact quote from "Julius Caesar" and I do not have the time to search my Shakespeare just right now.)
Australian Susan • Link
In Jane Austen's novels, the first thing we invariably learn about a character is how much they are worth and their value is the marriage market is thus evaluated. Austen mocks this in Pride and Prejudice (from which Glyn quoted the sublime opening)when Mrs Bennett (ever on the look out to marry off one of her five daughters with slim dowries)finds Mr Bingley even more of a pleasant character because of his 5000 pounds a year income. At least Sam notes that Mr Knightley (coincidently name of hero in JA's Emma) is someone her likes very well, before he names the huge income. Poor little Mrs Jem. Do we ever know if her neck ever was straightened out?
Robert Gertz • Link
Hmmn...Sam Pepys called in by my Lady to play "Emma", matchmakingwise. Cupid is armed and dangerous as the Gwenyth Paltrow version's ads used to say.
Pity we never hear the Montagu kids' voices in the Diary, even as to how they would address Sam... "Cousin Pepys?" "Mr. Sam?" "Oh, boy?" (As in, "Oh, boy...My sister Jem here has been a little sick. Clean up this mess would you, boy?")
Robert Gertz • Link
John Turner in town? I thought he liked to live away from London and his Missus, Sam's delightful cousin Jane, preferred to stay in town at her own house, gift of her late father.
Pauline • Link
"to buy a petticoat...and other things"
I see this as Sam playing the gallant, escorting his dear Lady Sandwich and the 70-year-old Mrs Sanderson, a veteran participant in the royal court.
Mary • Link
Second-hand clothes.
Throughout the 17th and 18th centuries, perhaps longer, it was common practice for top-quality clothes to be re-sold or re-tailored when they were no longer required by the owner or no longer fitted him/her well. This is suggested to be the reason for many surviving top-quality gowns (to be seen in museums of costume) being small in size. Mamma's 'best' gown would be taken in so that it could be used by a young daughter who needed to make a good first impression in society.
Mary • Link
... all things made clean against tomorrow.
Tomorrow is Whitsunday, hence the extra effort.
Xjy • Link
Very Jane Austen
Glyn's right of course. I wonder if anyone knows about the availability of Sam's diary in JA's day, and if she read it herself?
I was struck by the name Knightly and the round figure £2000. Very reminiscent.
Ruben • Link
Jane Austen left this world in 1817.
Pepys diary was published in 1825.
A. Hamilton • Link
buy a petticoat against the Queen's coming for my Lady, of plain satin…
Jane Austin’s Emma is not the only plot foreshadowed here. Sam’s talk of “the maids” and a petticoat of satin partly anticipates Sheridan’s The Critic, first enacted at Drury Lane Theater in 1779. It contains a play within a play, The Spanish Armada, involving the Governor of Tilbury Castle and his daughter, Tilburina. The mad scene begins thus:
Puff. Yes�here it is�[Looking at the book.] �Enter Tilburina stark mad in white satin, and her confidant stark mad in white linen….�
Sneer. But, what the deuce! is the confidant to be mad too?
Puff. To be sure she is: the confidant is always to do whatever her mistress does; weep when she weeps, smile when she smiles, go mad when she goes mad."Now, Madam Confidant...but keep your madness in the background, if you please.
http://www.bibliomania.com/0/6/28…
Pedro • Link
Coincidences.
Sam mentions Mr Knightly, Glyn and Susan mention Jane Austen, and the character Mr. Knightly in the book Emma.
Ollard in his biography, speaking of Sandwich's marriage at the age of 17, says-
The wisdom of choice of partner at such an age would would have astonished Mr. Knightly. "So early in life-at three-and-twenty-a period when, if a man chuses a wife, he generally chuses ill. At three-and-twenty to have drawn such a prize! What years of felicity that man, in all human calculation, has before him!" My Lady, as she is known to generations of Pepys's readers, amply supports that prognostication. Her gentleness and tact, her streength of principal and her affectionate heart would have made her favourite with Knightly's creator.
A. Hamilton • Link
Austen, of course, not Austin (Texas).
language hat • Link
Replication
OED definition: 'The reply of the plaintiff to the plea or answer of the defendant, being the third step in common pleadings.'
A few citations:
1453 Paston Lett. I. 260 To that that he hath aunsuerd y have replyed yn such wyse that y trowe.. that there shall no vayllable thyng be seyd to the contrarie of my seyd replicacion. 1625 SIR H. FINCH Law (1636) 279 Against the plea that the parties to the fine had nothing &c. it is no good replication, that the parties were seised. 1768 BLACKSTONE Comm. III. 310 The plaintiff.. may in his replication, after an evasive plea by the defendant, reduce that general wrong to a more particular certainty.
Nix • Link
Second-Hand Clothes --
Readers of Balzac will note the importance of used clothing sales in his stories, which carries the practice forward into the 19th century. Among other things, they seem to have served as a quick source of cash for those of the middle classes who did not receive credit from vendors, something like pawnshops.
Interestingly, fine clothing resale shops seem to have made something of a comeback in recent years.
Cumgranissalis • Link
RE: second hand clothing: Even in this wealthly society of Beverly Hills Ca: One can find Stores that sell preloved clothing of the Wealthy then further down the scale, there be in the Richest Country, one can find Thrift Shops selling clothing that is in very good condition, then there be the flea markets that sell recycled clothing for wear, then at Weekends there be yard sales with similar clothing.
Bob T • Link
Second-Hand Clothes
My Grandmother had quite a lucrative business, buying and selling "second-hand" clothes, prior to 1914. She would buy them from ladies maids, who got them as perks from their upper-class and aristocratic mistresses. For obvious reasons they were usually only worn once, twice at the most, in the case of evening wear. There was no shame in buying these "second-hand" clothes, in fact it was a bragging point to say, "This dress belonged to Lady......, or the Duchess of ........"
Second Reading
Terry Foreman • Link
"John Turner in town? I thought he liked to live away from London and his Missus, Sam's delightful cousin Jane, preferred to stay in town at her own house, gift of her late father."
Not really.. See Pauline's post http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…
from the L&M Companion entry for Turner, John and Jane
John Turner (1613-89}...was born in Kirkleatham, Yorks, and educated at Sidney Sussex College, Campridge. He entered the Middle Temple in 1634, was called to the bar in 1639, became a Bencher in 1661, Recorder of York in 1662 and King's Serjeant in 1669. In London they lived in style---kept a coach and had a large house in Salisbury Court {assessed on 10 hearths, 1666, pre-Fire}. In 1669 they went to live in Yorkshire....
Bill • Link
“and there put him drawing a replication to Tom Trice’s answer speedily”
REPLICATION, making a Reply, a second Answer.
REPLICATION, [in Law] the Plaintiff's Reply to the Defendant's Answer.
---An Universal Etymological English Dictionary. N. Bailey, 1724.
San Diego Sarah • Link
Meanwhile, in Scotland, today they were dealing with a self-proclaimed witch. The outcome of these hearings is not recorded anywhere, and judging by the list of requirements that had to be met to find her guilty, leading historians today think she was quietly sent home.
I add this as a way of showing how times were a'changing for the better. Satin petticoats, velvet cloaks, clean houses, letter writing, and a probably rejected witch ... Early Modern in every way.
Also, in 2020, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biographies is consciously featuring stories about women and minorities to make their records more representative of British culture. Times are still a'changing for the better.
https://www.oxforddnb.com/view/10…
Terry Foreman • Link
"Upon a letter this morning from Mr. Moore, I went to my cozen Turner’s chamber, and there put him drawing a replication to Tom Trice’s answer speedily."
L&M: Cf. https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/… The dispute (now in Chancery) was about Robert Pepys's Brampton estate (https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/… ); the lawyer was John Turner of the Middle Temple.
Terry Foreman • Link
"to the Wardrobe to dinner, where dined Mrs. Sanderson, the mother of the maids,"
L&M: Recte Lady Sanderson; Bridget, wife of Sir William, Gentleman of the Privy Chamber to the King. The Mother of the Maids was the household officer in charge of the maids-of-honour (in this case of the Queen). The post (established under Elizabeth) ceased to exist after 1689.