Monday 28 April 1662

The Doctor and I begun philosophy discourse exceeding pleasant. He offers to bring me into the college of virtuosoes and my Lord Brouncker’s acquaintance, and to show me some anatomy, which makes me very glad; and I shall endeavour it when I come to London. Sir W. Pen much troubled upon letters came last night. Showed me one of Dr. Owen’s to his son, whereby it appears his son is much perverted in his opinion by him; which I now perceive is one thing that hath put Sir William so long off the hooks. By coach to the Pay-house, and so to work again, and then to dinner, and to it again, and so in the evening to the yard, and supper and bed.

26 Annotations

First Reading

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

re: "which I now perceive is one thing that hath put Sir William so long off the hooks."

Could someone help with this? I understand that Penn Sr. believes that Owen is a bad influence on Penn Jr., but I'm not sure what the phrase above means.

Nix  •  Link

"hath put Sir William so long off the hooks" --

From OED:

15. off the hooks. (Cf. off the hinges, HINGE n. 5.) a. Out of proper condition; out of order; "in a bad way". b. Out of ordinary bounds, to excess. c. Out of humour or spirits, "put out"; "not quite right". Obs. d. Straight off, at once, summarily. e. to drop (etc.) off the hooks, to die (slang). f. off the hook: out of a difficult situation. Cf. on the hook (sense 2b above).

a. ?16.. Songs Lond. Prentices (Percy Soc.) 64 In all this long season they were off o’ th’ hook. a1659 CLEVELAND Pet. Poem 22 My Doublet looks Like him that wears it, quite off o’ the Hooks. 1684 H. MORE Answer 240 But the application is, methinks, much off the Hooks.

b. 1612 North’s Plutarch 1214 Agrippina flye off the hookes: and coming to Nero himself, threatned to take his Empire from him. 1621 MOLLE Camerar. Liv. Libr. III. vi. 167 In time of prosperitie proudly flie off the hookes. 1676 D’URFEY Mad. Fickle I. i. (1677) 7 My Brothers a little off the Hooks; but..’tis only the over-flow of Wit.

c. 1662 PEPYS Diary 28 Apr., One thing that hath put Sir William so long off the hooks. 1665 Ibid. 26 May, The Duke of Albemarle..mightily off the hooks, that the ships are not gone out of the River. 1779 Sylph II. 98 The Baronet is cursedly off the hooks, from the idea of its transpiring. 1824 SCOTT St. Ronan’s xxx, a little off the plain words, a little crazy, or so.

d. 1860 TROLLOPE Castle Richmond (Tauchn.) II. 350 (Hoppe) Baronets with twelve thousand a year cannot be married off the hooks.

e. 1840 H. COCKTON Life Valentine Vox xii. 95 No man was ever able to write his own life complete. He’s certain to go off the hooks before he has finished it. 1842 BARHAM Ingol. Leg., Blk. Mousquet. 11, Our friend..has popp’d off the hooks! 1862 TROLLOPE Orley F. (Tauchn.) II. 192 (Hoppe) If he fatigues himself so much as that often, he’ll soon be off the hooks. 1886 MRS. E. LYNN LINTON Paston Carew iii, He..was not far from eighty when he slipped off the hooks without an ache or pain. 1894 BLACKMORE Perlycross 293 Is it true that old Fox is dropping off the hooks? 1921 GALSWORTHY To Let I. i. 9 Old Timothy; he might go off the hooks at any moment. I suppose he’s made his Will.

Bob T  •  Link

that hath put Sir William so long off the hooks.

He's been freaked out. Right?

A. Hamilton  •  Link

Send that troublesome boy to the wilderness.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

So young radical Penn Jr. has started on his course, eh? A son who speaks out against war and violence and to view all as brothers and sisters must be no small burden to the conquerer of Jamaica (who no doubt must have a sleepless night or two remembering how he conquered Jamaica for Cromwell and co...Including a few old comrades at whose drawing and quartering he had to cheer...). Lucky for Sir Will, Charles II has an amused liking for Quakers.

Well, it's the 60s and all the fault of that liberal university education.

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"to show me some anatomy"
Can't wait to see how SP is going to react to this anatomy lesson;not for the faint of heart.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

This seems one time when if Beth could read the Diary she'd be pleasantly surprised...Or perhaps vexed at finding nothing to charge Sam with.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Beth gets her hands on this entry...

Sam, smug in his innocence, despite worry over seeing she has learned his shorthand...

"What is this?...Milord will show you some anatomy?! Mr. Pepys?! Whose anatomy?! It is Lady Castlemaine's, isn't?" Eyes narrow... "It's that Mrs. Pierce, I see it all now. I remember she was there last year in Portsmouth! Ah, yes..."

Pepys sinks down into chair...

Cumgranissalis  •  Link

"...I now perceive is one thing that hath put Sir William so long off the hooks..." converse it be to put one on the hook for "-": hook was a much beloved tool to keep a bag of blah or carcase under control while one moved a piece of dead meat from one location to the the butchers block,.then there be the bill hook for gathering of grasses be they good for hay or thrashing of kernals. Of course one can sling ones 'ook , i.e. get the 'ell out of Guverners way.
Here, I doth think it mean that Sir Wm. has no further control or influence over his Jr. and thereby veddy much in his cups [fowl mood],because son not heed papas advice. Father forgets he at this same age was in charge of many men, who obeyed Papas every whim, totherwise the victim maybe even keel hawled for not harkin to the word..

Australian Susan  •  Link

Anatomy was also used as a term for skeletons or parts of bodies or small creatures, such as could be viewed under a microscope. It may not have been an invitation to come and watch a dissection or some such.

JWB  •  Link

" the hooks."
I'd think an Admiral off the hooks would simply mean he's adrift.

JWB  •  Link

Dr. Owen
Owen was no Quaker. Jr. did not join the Friends until '67 when he again met with Thomas Loe.

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

re: "Owen was no Quaker"

Good point, JWB. In any case, Penn Jr. is not treading the accepted path (ah, the thrill of youthful rebellion!), and Dad's none the happier for it.

Thanks all, for the off-the-hooks definitions and discussion...

A. De Araujo  •  Link

Thanks Australian Susan,on second thought Sam would stand watching dissection very well, he has witnessed many gory executions without being squeamish about it.
"philosophy discourse"
Who would they be quoting?

Cumgranissalis  •  Link

philosophy discourse:?possible selection:
St. Augustine (354-430)City of God (412-427)
St. Thomans Aquinas (1225-1274)Summa Contra Gentiles (1259-1264)
Francis Bacon (1561-1626) [ money be like dung, must be spread].
Novum Organum (1620)
Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679)Leviathan (1651)
René Descartes (1596-1650) Discourse on the Method - (1637)Meditations of First Philosophy (1641)Principles of Philosophy (1644)
maybe Benedictus Spinoza (1632-1677)
John Locke not published but might have been heard of?
Sam has some essay I doth think?

Nix  •  Link

Philosophy discourse --

My guess is they were discussing what we would now call "natural science", rather than the more abstract or theoretical sense in which we use the word "philosophy". At that time, the term covered both uses, but Samuel's interests seem to me to lie much more in the physical realm -- especially considering the context in which it appears.

When I took a course on Shakespeare in college, I was told that Hamlet's declaration that "there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosphy" referred to "natural philosophy", i.e., science, not Aristotle or Aquinas.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Admiral Sir Will Penn to Pepys...

"Ah, if only his mother had let me send the damned rogue of a boy to sea at nine as I wished. There'd be none of this damned radical nonsense about him now."

Pepys makes mental resolution to chat with young Penn as to "damned radical nonsense"...

Hmmn, well it could be worse...In the 1760's young Penn might have supported the early stirrings of the American Revolution. In the 1860's Irish home rule, emancipation of the Russian serfs and American black slaves, and the early stirrings of socialism. And then there's the 1960's.

It could be worse, Sir Will...

Cumgranissalis  •  Link

"...It could be worse, Sir Will.." yep tis tru, he could be a total wastrel like many an elder son of a succesfull character, and then be known as a 'Sot' or else be like King John and lose half the Kingdom.

Ruben  •  Link

philosophy: I tend to agree with Nix.
Then I liked Vincent's list of hypothetic topics of discussion.
Only that to discuss Baruch Spinoza was a little early.
Citing Descartes by name in those days could be something of a risk and Pepys would hear but not comment, I think.
Dr. Clarke was also a surviver, so probably they did not discussed Descartes at all.

Glyn  •  Link

John Locke is only about 6 months older than Pepys and they both frequented the tavern called the Hercules Pillars…

so he might have talked philosophy with him, but we'll never know (apparently he never appears in the Diary).

However, I also think that Nix has the right interpretion of this.

Terry F  •  Link

This Day in the House of Lords

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, "An Act for preventing the frequent Abuses in printing seditious, treasonable, and unlicensed Books and Pamphlets, and for regulating of Printing and Printing Presses."

The Question being put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

From: 'House of Lords Journal Volume 11: 28 April 1662', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 11: 1660-1666, pp. 438-40. URL:… Date accessed: 11 May 2007.

Licensing of the Press Act 1662
[an article that ends with a link to the Act's full text)…

This Act renews/amends previous such Acts -- in the Interregnum (Acts of 20 Sept. 1649, 7 January, 1652/3.) and the Tudor period ACTS CONCERNING PRINTING (1530-85), (A) Proclamation against Erroneous Books (1530), (B) Decree in Star Chamber concerning Books (1566) in which the Wardens of the Stationers Company were given censorship responsibility, and C) Decree in Star Chamber Concerning Printers (1585)…

Second Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

William Penn, jun. had been sent down from Christ Church, Oxford for his nonconformity in October 1661. Among his mentors had been Dr. John Owen, the Independent divine, who, after resigning the deanery of Christ Church in March 1660 (some months before Penn matriculated there), had stayed on in Oxford. His father was always distressed by his religious opinions and twice sent him away from home on that account. (L&M note)

Bill  •  Link

To be quite off the hooks, tre mal a son aise
---A short dictionary English and French. G. Miège, 1684.

be ill at his ease (Google translate)

Sasha Clarkson  •  Link

"college of virtuosoes" So, this is one of the really important diary entries, as it marks the beginning of Pepys' long association with the Royal Society. Pepys thereby would become acquainted with (even more) of the most learned and forward thinking men of his day. He would also become the society's president in 1684, and thus be responsible for the publication of Newton's Principia.

Principia was written in Latin: its famous title page is shown in the link below, and was usually reproduced in subsequent English editions.…

Sasha Clarkson  •  Link

Cromwell too had a soft spot for Quakers. In his 'England under the Stuarts', GM Trevelyan quotes from a 1654 entry in Quaker founder George Fox's diary, that, at the end of one of their several meetings, Cromwell "caught me by the hand, and with tears in his eyes said 'Come here again to my house, for if thou and I were to have but an hour a day together, we should be nearer to one another' ".

In the blasphemy case against James Nayler, Cromwell intervened to dissuade the second Protectorate Parliament from ordering Naylor's execution, and attempted but failed to mitigate the harshness of Naylor's punishment. Incidentally, this shows that even at the height of his power, Cromwell governed as a chief executive, but not as a dictator.…

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