Monday 1 June 1668

Up and with Sir J. Minnes to Westminster, and in the Hall there I met with Harris and Rolt, and carried them to the Rhenish wine- house, where I have not been in a morning — nor any tavern, I think, these seven years and more. Here I did get the words of a song of Harris that I wanted. Here also Mr. Young and Whistler by chance met us, and drank with us. Thence home, and to prepare business against the afternoon, and did walk an hour in the garden with Sir W. Warren, who do tell me of the great difficulty he is under in the business of his accounts with the Commissioners of Parliament, and I fear some inconveniences and troubles may be occasioned thereby to me. So to dinner, and then with Sir J. Minnes to White Hall, and there attended the Lords of the Treasury and also a committee of Council with the Duke of York about the charge of this year’s fleete, and thence I to Westminster and to Mrs. Martin’s, and did hazer what je would con her, and did once toker la thigh de su landlady, and thence all alone to Fox Hall, and walked and saw young Newport, and two more rogues of the town, seize on two ladies, who walked with them an hour with their masks on; perhaps civil ladies; and there I left them, and so home, and thence to Mr. Mills’s, where I never was before, and here find, whom I indeed saw go in, and that did make me go thither, Mrs. Hallworthy and Mrs. Andrews, and here supped, and, extraordinary merry till one in the morning, Mr. Andrews coming to us: and mightily pleased with this night’s company and mirth I home to bed. Mrs. Turner, too, was with us.

9 Annotations

Terry Foreman   Link to this

L&M transcribe today's passing Pepys pawings thus: "to Mrs. Martin's, and did hazer what yo would con her, and did aussi toker la thigh de su landlady...."

Pepys on the prowl again today -- in some unfamiliar places.

"Fox-Hall" (Vauxhall) is apparently already trending toward the place where the naughty bits played out -- see Mary's annotation http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/6546/#c3... After this a token penance at Mr. Milles's.

James in Illinois   Link to this

"Perhaps civil ladies" Any help?

Terry Foreman   Link to this

“Perhaps civil ladies”

civil
late 14c., "relating to civil law or life," from Fr. civil (13c.) and directly from L. civilis "relating to a citizen, relating to public life, befitting a citizen," hence "popular, affable, courteous;" alternative adj. derivation of civis "townsman" (see city). The sense of "polite" was in the Latin, from the courteous manners of citizens, as opposed to those of soldiers. But English did not pick up this nuance of the word until late 16c. "Courteous is thus more commonly said of superiors, civil of inferiors, since it implies or suggests the possibility of incivility or rudeness" [OED]. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=civil

Mary   Link to this

Civil ladies.

The 'perhaps' is significant here. The sense of 'seemly, proper' is amongst those cited by the OED for 'civil' in the early 17th century but these ladies aren't in either seemly or proper company, so their own status is in doubt.

Liza   Link to this

I'm betting "civil ladies" means "women of the town", AKA prostitutes.

Chris Squire   Link to this

I think the ’perhaps’ indicates that P thought the ladies were only putting up with the rogues out of good manners or a reluctance to make a scene [which might lead to them being recognised or even unmasked and their husbands getting to hear about it].

OED offers a choice of meanings from which I prefer:

‘ . . 6.a. Of a person or his or her attributes, behaviour, etc.: educated; cultured, cultivated; well-bred. Obs
. . a1704 J. Locke Lett. (1708) 31, I know what latitude civil and well bred men allow themselves.

. . 7. a. Courteous, or obliging in behaviour to others; demonstrating or indicative of such behaviour; polite.
. . 1580 A. Munday Zelauto i. 17, I very well esteeme of your courteous and civill demeanour.
. . 1718 Free-thinker No. 51. 1 A Youth ought‥always to shew a Civil Regard to his Elders.
1774 R. Cumberland Note of Hand ii. iv. 33 A very civil pretty spoken gentleman, upon my conscience . .

. . 11. Benevolent; kind, considerate. Obs.
1609 R. Cawdrey Table Alphabet. (ed. 2) , Ciuill, honest in conversation, or gentle in behaviour . . ‘

Chris Squire   Link to this

Not prostitutes, Liza, but ‘ladies of easy virtue’, according to this source:

‘Julian's Farewell To The Coquets [September, 1687]
"Julian's Farewell" (in which, of course, Julian, now out of prison, is only a persona) is unusual because it is an attack upon a family; in one version it is entitled "Julian's Farewell to the Family of Co­quets." The three ladies pilloried are Anne (Long), Lady Mason, widow of Sir Richard Mason, . . her first daughter, Dorothy Mason, and her second daughter, Anne, Lady Brandon (Gerard), estranged wife of Charles Gerard, Lord Brandon . .

‘Give o'er, ye poor players, depend not on wit,
The best play you have the cost will not quit;
They are gone who each day filled your boxes and pit.

Near Epsom are two civil ladies* retired,
Whom all the Town for good nature admired;
With hopes, not with beauty, our oglers they fired.

Not a day any public place did they fail,
And, as slight baits to inveigle gudgeons prevail,
Each still had a fry of young fools at their tail.

Confess not, O Rosamund's pond, the rare pranks
Which at midnight they played on the sides of your banks,
Nor tell with what member the men gave them thanks . .’

* civil ladies. The two civil (i.e., complaisant) ladies, Dorothy Mason and her sister, Anne, Lady Brandon, lived at Sutton, Surrey, near Epsom.’

From: Court Satires of the Restoration by J H Wilson, 1976, p. 138

Robert Gertz   Link to this

Civil ladies...

Perhaps US Civil War General Ben Butler (Beast Butler to Confederates) puts it best in his general order 28 for the New Orleans occupation: "As the officers and soldiers of the United States have been subjected to repeated insults from the women (calling themselves ladies) of New Orleans, in return for the most scrupulous noninterference and courtesy on our part, it is ordered that hereafter when any female shall, by word, gesture, or movement, insult or show contempt for any officer or soldier of the United States, she shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation."

Studs Terkel reads that so well for Burns "The Civil War".

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"I to Westminster and to Mrs. Martin’s, and did hazer what je would con her, and did once toker la thigh de su landlady, and thence all alone to Fox Hall, and walked and saw young Newport, and two more rogues of the town, seize on two ladies..."

Breathtaking obtuseness, eh?

Heaven...

"Well?" Bess, tapping finger on incriminating Diary page...

"Newport was a terrible fellow...I did try to speak to him...Uh...You do note I had the decency to carry out my unspeakably shameful acts for which I abjectly apologize in private."

...

"Bess?!" Dear God, I knew she knew "devil" but that other language...

"You did see I spent the rest of the day with our local minister?!" calls after her. Door slam...

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