I've been wondering where Ashwell was in all this; surely she should have been chaperoning Mrs. Pepys? If they were in collusion to enable Elizabeth's bad behave, Pepys should have fired her. In my imagine Ashwell plays the dance music for these lessons, and once when she went downstairs to bring up a jug of water and glasses, Pepys walks in and finds Elizabeth and Pemberton alone. Ashwell didn't get into trouble because she was doing her job. Or something. I suppose we will never know ...
John Pell (1611-1685) and His Correspondence with Sir Charles ... https://books.google.com/books?is… Noel Malcolm, Jacqueline Stedall - 2005 - Biography & Autobiography The Books denyd, &c., and Dr. Pell noe freind to the Royall Society. ... 'Pett' would seem to be Sir John Pett, F.R.S.; but there is a possibility that Hooke meant Sir ...
Looking at the text of the book, it is no more helpful. Apart from this I have not been able to find anything, under general search, Hooke's diary or biographies, or histories of the Royal Society..
Sir John Pett was a member of the Royal Society. However, Google gives me no other information. Given that Christopher Pett was the 11th child, and Peter was one brother, there's lots of room for other smart older brothers. Any information anyone?
On second thoughts, "But, Lord! in what a poor condition her best chamber is, and things about her, ..., but I found her just such a one as Mrs. Pierce, contrary to my expectation, so much that I am sick and sorry to see it." Pepys is reporting that they are messy. We know they don't have wardrobes to hang things in (things were folded into chests) ... that good help is hard to find and harder to keep ... and goodness knows, they all stank. If you don't like it, you need to invent cupboards, Sam!
As I read it, Dr, and Mrs. Clerke live in Whitehall -- possibly in the Palace itself -- which was built: "In 1529, Henry Vlll got fed up with Westminster Palace and built himself another one which he called Whitehall Palace. It covered 23 acres and it was the official royal residence until it burned down in 1698." If so the Clerke's accommodations could have been about 135 years old. I suspect it was harder to do renovations in the Palaces than at the Navy buildings (where they could use Navy Yard workmen who had access to wood, etc., and could prefab off-site, and where there was less-frequented space to set up scaffolding, etc.). In which case, I'm not surprised Pepys' bedroom was nicer than the Clerkes'.
"He was one of those who were employed in forging chains for the English, ..." Can anyone explain this reference to chains for the English? Chains for the Scots, I can understand. For instance:
Richard "Hannibal" Rumbold made his defiant declaration on the Edinburgh scaffold before his execution for being part of the Rye House Plot on 26 June 1685: “This is a deluded generation, veiled in ignorance, that though popery and slavery be riding in upon them, do not perceive it; though I am sure that there was no man born marked by God above another; for none comes into this world with a saddle on his back, neither any booted and spurred to ride him...” This speech was rendered famous all over again during the discussions on the definition of treason at the American Constitutional Convention.
But this 1685 reference to slavery doesn't implicate Lauderdale, who was long gone by then anyways.
I've been unsuccessfully searching my files for the reference to the freeing of English slaves (whites, not indians or blacks), I recall by Charles II, except for miners who had to continue their miserable existence, from generation to generation. As I recall at least some of these miners were Scots.
Maybe it's a general reference to the brutality with which Judge Jeffries et al handled anyone who was inconvenient, and Lauderdale was a dab hand at that, even though he did take the trouble to have Charles II confirm every course of action before he took it. It was a brutal time, with or without chains.
HELP ... the link above to these much-anticipated letter(s) is dead. I checked the "letters" section and they don't start for a couple of years. Didn't the Bodleian like them being on the internet or something???
Hi Terry -- referring to our exchange a couple of weeks ago about the location of the Countess of Sandwich, it appears quite a few courtiers are in town, even if the action has moved into Castlemaine's apartment. My current theory is that the Sandwiches are lying low ... the Earl has been sick for about 4 months, and when you're not feeling well you lose a lot of money at cards, and may say something unwise ... they have a low profile because the House of Lords are discussing punishing Puritans who have only-lately come to love the monarchy ... and the Countess has had to deal with their son the Viscount who just killed someone. The Viscount and the villagers would be upset about that, even if it was an accident. So instead I'm wondering why she has come to London now. It seems staying at Hinchinbrooke would be wiser. As a writer, I am fascinated by motive. I love Pepys' diary because he is so transparent about motive most of the time. The Countess' motive may be as simple as she left her summer clothes at The Wardrobe ... or she needs some new shoes. Or perhaps she's heard reports on the Earl's behavior ... we shall see ...
"Then Captain Cocke coming to me to speak about my seeming discourtesy to him in the business of his hemp, ..." Now what? I suppose this refers to the contract of March 12, 1663:
"all the morning with Captain Cocke ending their account of their Riga contract for hemp." The drawing-up of this contract was begun 18 February. http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Sam spent several days going over old accounts with Capt. George Cocke, learning about hemp, negotiating a deal, having it written up, etc. and now George wants to complain about bad treatment? He got lots of access to the decision-makers during the process. Fortunately this gripe session doesn't appear to have ruined the working relationship, but really ... Pepys was in no mood for this one!
Of course, we can never know who Mr. Armourer was, but here's a guess:
http://www.unofficialroyalty.com/… In 1654, Anne Hyde was appointed a maid of honor to Mary, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange, the eldest daughter of King Charles of England, the widow of William II, Prince of Orange and the mother of the young William III, Prince of Orange who would marry Anne’s daughter Mary. Given the situation, it was natural that Anne should come into contact with members of the exiled English royal family including King Charles’ second surviving son, James, Duke of York. Anne was very attractive and stylish, and attracted many men, including James, Duke of York.
I read "... great discourse being the folly of our two doting knights, of which I am ashamed ..." to mean Pepys was ashamed of gossiping with Creed ... opinions about your betters could be trouble. Remember how paranoid Pepys was at Christmas, fearing he would bump into Carteret (maybe it was Mennes?). Right now he's worried Mr. Hater will be "outed", and he will be compromised for not firing him. John Creed appears to be one of his BFFs, but if things go south ... I wonder if Creed was jealous of Pepys' relationship with Sandwich, and superior position which might have been his?
"So to visit my Lady Jemimah, who is grown much since I saw her; but lacks mightily to be brought into the fashion of the court to set her off."
✹ Pauline on 9 May 2006 • Link • Flag ... I don't think he [Sam] means she looks dowdy. He appears to think that she can't be brought into fashion -- fancy clothes alone won't do it. Remember that at the beginning of the diary she was living in London to go through a series of treatments to straighten out her neck (with Sam as her guardian). I am afraid she is not a straight-carriaged and pretty young girl.
"Following the disappearance of the Norse population, expeditions from England and Norway came to Greenland throughout the 16th and 17th centuries ... it was primarily the European whalers who came into contact with the Inuits.
"This resulted in extensive trade, and the Inuits were particularly taken with the Europeans' small glass beads, which today are used in the national costume."
"Christian IV's expeditions were sent by King Christian IV of Denmark to Greenland and Arctic waterways during the years 1605-1607. The expeditions were commissioned in order to locate the lost Eastern Norse Settlement and reassert Danish sovereignty over Greenland.
"The expeditions were mostly unsuccessful, partly due to its leaders lacking experience with the difficult arctic ice and weather conditions and partly due to its leaders eventually being given instructions to search for the Eastern Settlement on the east coast of Greenland, which was almost inaccessible at the time due to southward-drifting ice.
"The pilot on all three trips was James Hall, who ... trusted "Frobisher's Strait" to be in southern Greenland, whereas it is in fact a bay projecting into southern Baffin Island. The expeditions were respectively commanded by John Cunningham (or "Hans Køning"; 1605), Godske Lindenov (1606), and Carsten Richardson (1607). The Danes had a falling out with the English over the route being taken, far to the south of that recorded in the Bergen and Trondheim archives. They also sometimes searched for the imaginary Island of Buss."
In the same vein, King Christian commissioned an expedition to North America in 1619. The expedition was captained by Dano-Norwegian navigator and explorer, Jens Munk. The ships were searching for the Northwest Passage. The expedition arrived in Hudson Bay landing at the mouth of Churchill River, settling at what is now Churchill, Manitoba. However, it was a disastrous voyage, with cold, famine, and scurvy killing most of the crew."
Hi, Terry ... how nice of you to join us! You raise an interesting point: Do the nobility go home for Easter? Is there a master calendar for when the Court is active? As I understood it, personal servants -- like the Gentlemen of the Bedchamber -- were usually "on duty" for 3 months before switching over to the next "shift" so they got time to care for their own activities. Then there are Cabinet members like Sandwich who have apartments around Whitehall Palace and are "on call" all the time. And there are civil servants like Pepys who live at work, and are "on call" all the time. And finally there are "consultants" like Sir Robert Moray, Barbara Villiers Palmer and Van Dyke who have "grace and favor" quarters in convenient places for the Royals to call on. Factor in evacuations for the plague, summer progressions so the Whitehall sewers can be dug out, the out-of-towners visited, and food supplies in other parts of the country eaten, plus trips to Newmarket for the racing, and weekends at Hampton Court ... someone had a very big planning calendar somewhere. The logistics of all this boggles my mind.
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1… Sunday 3 May 1663 (Lord’s day). So made myself ready and to church, where Sir W. Penn showed me the young lady which young Dawes, that sits in the new corner-pew in the church, hath stole away from Sir Andrew Rickard, her guardian, worth 1,000l. per annum present, good land, and some money, and a very well-bred and handsome lady: he, I doubt, but a simple fellow. However he got this good luck to get her, which methinks I could envy him with all my heart. &&& ✹ Terry Foreman on 20 Dec 2014 • Link • Flag "... the young lady which young Dawes ... hath stole away from Sir Andrew Rickard, her guardian" The marriage license of John Dawes of St. Olaves, Hart St. (bachelor, aged 30) and Christian Hawkins (spinster, aged 16) is dated 21 April 1663. It states that that the bride's parents were dead and that consent had been given by her aunt, the wife of [Sir Andrew] Rickard of St. Olave's. A petition by Dawes to Charles II about the disputed guardianship is in the National Archives.
OOOOoooooppppps ... I'm starting rumors: Please ignore the above post. This is Lady Jemima Montagu, "Mrs/Lady Jem" -- Daughter of Lord Sandwich, and she marries Philip Carteret in 1665. Nevertheless, there has been no mention of where the Countess of Sandwich is living in months. And now the daughter has come to town and is staying with her grandfather, Lord Crew (correct spelling!). While papa goes home to Chelsea. So I'm still wondering where Lady Sandwich is these days.
Lady Jem. has come to town, and is staying with her father, Lord Crewe. Her husband has been sick for months, and although he is at Whitehall today, he goes "home" to Chelsea. Apparently the Montagus are not seeing each other ... ? Perhaps one day "someone" will post Sandwich's diary along with these daily entries so it makes a bit more sense. In the meantime, does anyone know what's going on?
"But this my Lord did not tell me, but is my guess only; and that my Lord Chancellor is without doubt falling past hopes." Lord Chancellor Edward Hyde, Earl of Clarendon did not fall out of favor until 1667, so I am puzzled by this. Sandwich is giving Pepys this impression, so perhaps it means Sandwich doesn't like Hyde's attitude towards Monmouth? Anyone know what this is about?
Comments
Second Reading
About Thursday 21 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
I've been wondering where Ashwell was in all this; surely she should have been chaperoning Mrs. Pepys? If they were in collusion to enable Elizabeth's bad behave, Pepys should have fired her. In my imagine Ashwell plays the dance music for these lessons, and once when she went downstairs to bring up a jug of water and glasses, Pepys walks in and finds Elizabeth and Pemberton alone. Ashwell didn't get into trouble because she was doing her job. Or something. I suppose we will never know ...
About Wednesday 20 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
When I Google John Pett I get the following:
John Pell (1611-1685) and His Correspondence with Sir Charles ...
https://books.google.com/books?is…
Noel Malcolm, Jacqueline Stedall - 2005 - Biography & Autobiography
The Books denyd, &c., and Dr. Pell noe freind to the Royall Society. ... 'Pett' would seem to be Sir John Pett, F.R.S.; but there is a possibility that Hooke meant Sir ...
Looking at the text of the book, it is no more helpful. Apart from this I have not been able to find anything, under general search, Hooke's diary or biographies, or histories of the Royal Society..
About Wednesday 20 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
Sir John Pett was a member of the Royal Society. However, Google gives me no other information. Given that Christopher Pett was the 11th child, and Peter was one brother, there's lots of room for other smart older brothers. Any information anyone?
About Monday 18 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
On second thoughts, "But, Lord! in what a poor condition her best chamber is, and things about her, ..., but I found her just such a one as Mrs. Pierce, contrary to my expectation, so much that I am sick and sorry to see it." Pepys is reporting that they are messy. We know they don't have wardrobes to hang things in (things were folded into chests) ... that good help is hard to find and harder to keep ... and goodness knows, they all stank. If you don't like it, you need to invent cupboards, Sam!
About Monday 18 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
As I read it, Dr, and Mrs. Clerke live in Whitehall -- possibly in the Palace itself -- which was built: "In 1529, Henry Vlll got fed up with Westminster Palace and built himself another one which he called Whitehall Palace. It covered 23 acres and it was the official royal residence until it burned down in 1698." If so the Clerke's accommodations could have been about 135 years old. I suspect it was harder to do renovations in the Palaces than at the Navy buildings (where they could use Navy Yard workmen who had access to wood, etc., and could prefab off-site, and where there was less-frequented space to set up scaffolding, etc.). In which case, I'm not surprised Pepys' bedroom was nicer than the Clerkes'.
About Sunday 17 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
Thanks -- again -- Terry.
About John Maitland (2nd Earl of Lauderdale)
San Diego Sarah • Link
"He was one of those who were employed in forging chains for the English, ..." Can anyone explain this reference to chains for the English? Chains for the Scots, I can understand. For instance:
Richard "Hannibal" Rumbold made his defiant declaration on the Edinburgh scaffold before his execution for being part of the Rye House Plot on 26 June 1685: “This is a deluded generation, veiled in ignorance, that though popery and slavery be riding in upon them, do not perceive it; though I am sure that there was no man born marked by God above another; for none comes into this world with a saddle on his back, neither any booted and spurred to ride him...” This speech was rendered famous all over again during the discussions on the definition of treason at the American Constitutional Convention.
But this 1685 reference to slavery doesn't implicate Lauderdale, who was long gone by then anyways.
I've been unsuccessfully searching my files for the reference to the freeing of English slaves (whites, not indians or blacks), I recall by Charles II, except for miners who had to continue their miserable existence, from generation to generation. As I recall at least some of these miners were Scots.
Maybe it's a general reference to the brutality with which Judge Jeffries et al handled anyone who was inconvenient, and Lauderdale was a dab hand at that, even though he did take the trouble to have Charles II confirm every course of action before he took it. It was a brutal time, with or without chains.
About Sunday 17 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
HELP ... the link above to these much-anticipated letter(s) is dead. I checked the "letters" section and they don't start for a couple of years. Didn't the Bodleian like them being on the internet or something???
About Friday 15 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
Hi Terry -- referring to our exchange a couple of weeks ago about the location of the Countess of Sandwich, it appears quite a few courtiers are in town, even if the action has moved into Castlemaine's apartment. My current theory is that the Sandwiches are lying low ... the Earl has been sick for about 4 months, and when you're not feeling well you lose a lot of money at cards, and may say something unwise ... they have a low profile because the House of Lords are discussing punishing Puritans who have only-lately come to love the monarchy ... and the Countess has had to deal with their son the Viscount who just killed someone. The Viscount and the villagers would be upset about that, even if it was an accident. So instead I'm wondering why she has come to London now. It seems staying at Hinchinbrooke would be wiser. As a writer, I am fascinated by motive. I love Pepys' diary because he is so transparent about motive most of the time. The Countess' motive may be as simple as she left her summer clothes at The Wardrobe ... or she needs some new shoes. Or perhaps she's heard reports on the Earl's behavior ... we shall see ...
About George Cocke ("Captain")
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Then Captain Cocke coming to me to speak about my seeming discourtesy to him in the business of his hemp, ..." Now what? I suppose this refers to the contract of March 12, 1663:
"all the morning with Captain Cocke ending their account of their Riga contract for hemp." The drawing-up of this contract was begun 18 February. http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Sam spent several days going over old accounts with Capt. George Cocke, learning about hemp, negotiating a deal, having it written up, etc. and now George wants to complain about bad treatment? He got lots of access to the decision-makers during the process. Fortunately this gripe session doesn't appear to have ruined the working relationship, but really ... Pepys was in no mood for this one!
About Friday 15 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
Of course, we can never know who Mr. Armourer was, but here's a guess:
http://www.unofficialroyalty.com/…
In 1654, Anne Hyde was appointed a maid of honor to Mary, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange, the eldest daughter of King Charles of England, the widow of William II, Prince of Orange and the mother of the young William III, Prince of Orange who would marry Anne’s daughter Mary. Given the situation, it was natural that Anne should come into contact with members of the exiled English royal family including King Charles’ second surviving son, James, Duke of York. Anne was very attractive and stylish, and attracted many men, including James, Duke of York.
http://archive.org/stream/travels…
says that Henry, Duke of Gloucester was conducted by Nicholas Armorer to Teylingen, where he joined his sister on January 26, 1654.
It's possible ... any other ideas?
About Tuesday 12 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
I read "... great discourse being the folly of our two doting knights, of which I am ashamed ..." to mean Pepys was ashamed of gossiping with Creed ... opinions about your betters could be trouble. Remember how paranoid Pepys was at Christmas, fearing he would bump into Carteret (maybe it was Mennes?). Right now he's worried Mr. Hater will be "outed", and he will be compromised for not firing him. John Creed appears to be one of his BFFs, but if things go south ... I wonder if Creed was jealous of Pepys' relationship with Sandwich, and superior position which might have been his?
About Jemima Carteret (b. Mountagu, "Mrs/Lady Jem")
San Diego Sarah • Link
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
"So to visit my Lady Jemimah, who is grown much since I saw her; but lacks mightily to be brought into the fashion of the court to set her off."
✹ Pauline on 9 May 2006 • Link • Flag
... I don't think he [Sam] means she looks dowdy. He appears to think that she can't be brought into fashion -- fancy clothes alone won't do it. Remember that at the beginning of the diary she was living in London to go through a series of treatments to straighten out her neck (with Sam as her guardian). I am afraid she is not a straight-carriaged and pretty young girl.
About Thursday 7 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
Thank you, Phil. I was wondering why I wasn't confused.
About Wednesday 6 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
To which country did Greenland "belong" in Charles II's day? Fishing rights were contested even in those days.
http://www.greenland.com/en/about… :
"Following the disappearance of the Norse population, expeditions from England and Norway came to Greenland throughout the 16th and 17th centuries ... it was primarily the European whalers who came into contact with the Inuits.
"This resulted in extensive trade, and the Inuits were particularly taken with the Europeans' small glass beads, which today are used in the national costume."
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chr… :
"Christian IV's expeditions were sent by King Christian IV of Denmark to Greenland and Arctic waterways during the years 1605-1607. The expeditions were commissioned in order to locate the lost Eastern Norse Settlement and reassert Danish sovereignty over Greenland.
"The expeditions were mostly unsuccessful, partly due to its leaders lacking experience with the difficult arctic ice and weather conditions and partly due to its leaders eventually being given instructions to search for the Eastern Settlement on the east coast of Greenland, which was almost inaccessible at the time due to southward-drifting ice.
"The pilot on all three trips was James Hall, who ... trusted "Frobisher's Strait" to be in southern Greenland, whereas it is in fact a bay projecting into southern Baffin Island. The expeditions were respectively commanded by John Cunningham (or "Hans Køning"; 1605), Godske Lindenov (1606), and Carsten Richardson (1607). The Danes had a falling out with the English over the route being taken, far to the south of that recorded in the Bergen and Trondheim archives. They also sometimes searched for the imaginary Island of Buss."
In the same vein, King Christian commissioned an expedition to North America in 1619. The expedition was captained by Dano-Norwegian navigator and explorer, Jens Munk. The ships were searching for the Northwest Passage. The expedition arrived in Hudson Bay landing at the mouth of Churchill River, settling at what is now Churchill, Manitoba. However, it was a disastrous voyage, with cold, famine, and scurvy killing most of the crew."
About Monday 4 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
Hi, Terry ... how nice of you to join us! You raise an interesting point: Do the nobility go home for Easter? Is there a master calendar for when the Court is active? As I understood it, personal servants -- like the Gentlemen of the Bedchamber -- were usually "on duty" for 3 months before switching over to the next "shift" so they got time to care for their own activities. Then there are Cabinet members like Sandwich who have apartments around Whitehall Palace and are "on call" all the time. And there are civil servants like Pepys who live at work, and are "on call" all the time. And finally there are "consultants" like Sir Robert Moray, Barbara Villiers Palmer and Van Dyke who have "grace and favor" quarters in convenient places for the Royals to call on. Factor in evacuations for the plague, summer progressions so the Whitehall sewers can be dug out, the out-of-towners visited, and food supplies in other parts of the country eaten, plus trips to Newmarket for the racing, and weekends at Hampton Court ... someone had a very big planning calendar somewhere. The logistics of all this boggles my mind.
About Sir Andrew Rickard
San Diego Sarah • Link
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Sunday 3 May 1663 (Lord’s day).
So made myself ready and to church, where Sir W. Penn showed me the young lady which young Dawes, that sits in the new corner-pew in the church, hath stole away from Sir Andrew Rickard, her guardian, worth 1,000l. per annum present, good land, and some money, and a very well-bred and handsome lady: he, I doubt, but a simple fellow. However he got this good luck to get her, which methinks I could envy him with all my heart.
&&&
✹ Terry Foreman on 20 Dec 2014 • Link • Flag
"... the young lady which young Dawes ... hath stole away from Sir Andrew Rickard, her guardian" The marriage license of John Dawes of St. Olaves, Hart St. (bachelor, aged 30) and Christian Hawkins (spinster, aged 16) is dated 21 April 1663. It states that that the bride's parents were dead and that consent had been given by her aunt, the wife of [Sir Andrew] Rickard of St. Olave's. A petition by Dawes to Charles II about the disputed guardianship is in the National Archives.
About Monday 4 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
OOOOoooooppppps ... I'm starting rumors: Please ignore the above post. This is Lady Jemima Montagu, "Mrs/Lady Jem" -- Daughter of Lord Sandwich, and she marries Philip Carteret in 1665. Nevertheless, there has been no mention of where the Countess of Sandwich is living in months. And now the daughter has come to town and is staying with her grandfather, Lord Crew (correct spelling!). While papa goes home to Chelsea. So I'm still wondering where Lady Sandwich is these days.
About Monday 4 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
Lady Jem. has come to town, and is staying with her father, Lord Crewe. Her husband has been sick for months, and although he is at Whitehall today, he goes "home" to Chelsea. Apparently the Montagus are not seeing each other ... ? Perhaps one day "someone" will post Sandwich's diary along with these daily entries so it makes a bit more sense. In the meantime, does anyone know what's going on?
About Monday 4 May 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
"But this my Lord did not tell me, but is my guess only; and that my Lord Chancellor is without doubt falling past hopes." Lord Chancellor Edward Hyde, Earl of Clarendon did not fall out of favor until 1667, so I am puzzled by this. Sandwich is giving Pepys this impression, so perhaps it means Sandwich doesn't like Hyde's attitude towards Monmouth? Anyone know what this is about?