Saturday 22 December 1666

At the office all the morning, and there come news from Hogg that our shipp hath brought in a Lubecker to Portsmouth, likely to prove prize, of deals, which joys us. At noon home to dinner, and then Sir W. Pen, Sir R. Ford, and I met at Sir W. Batten’s to examine our papers, and have great hopes to prove her prize, and Sir R. Ford I find a mighty yare man in this business, making exceeding good observations from the papers on our behalf. Hereupon concluded what to write to Hogg and Middleton, which I did, and also with Mr. Oviatt (Sir R. Ford’s son, who is to be our solicitor), to fee some counsel in the Admiralty, but none in town. So home again, and after writing letters by the post, I with all my clerks and Carcasse and Whitfield to the ticket-office, there to be informed in the method and disorder of the office, which I find infinite great, of infinite concernment to be mended, and did spend till 12 at night to my great satisfaction, it being a point of our office I was wholly unacquainted in. So with great content home and to bed.


14 Annotations

CGS  •  Link

First mention of a ticket-office, tickets yes, but a special payout place, I wonder where it be located.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

Arlington to Ormond
Written from: Whitehall
Date: 22 December 1666

Communicates late proceedings in both Houses of Parliament, and also at a conference between them; at which latter, "the Duke of Buckingham, and the Marquess of Dorchester, had an unbecoming contest for place. ... Both peers were sent prisoners to the Tower, and are this day released, "upon condition to be made friends". ...
_______________________

Ormond to Orrery
Written from: Dublin
Date: 22 December 1666

Desires to take longer time to consider of the Earl's very pertinent reflections on the insurrection in Scotland; & to defer the execution of some measures prudently advised by his Lordship, until they can meet. ...

Gives some particulars concerning the reprisal-claims of the Duke of York, now pending, under provisions of the Settlement Acts; also various details of military and naval matters.

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/projects/c…

CGS  •  Link

lubecker, a stray ship worthy of prizes.
Lubeck. A Hanseatic port,
.....After defeat in the Count's Feud, Lübeck's power slowly declined. Lübeck managed to remain neutral in the Thirty Years' War, but with the devastation caused by the decades-long war and the new transatlantic orientation of European trade, the Hanseatic League and thus Lübeck lost importance. After the Hanseatic League was de facto disbanded in 1669, Lübeck remained an important trading town on the Baltic Sea............
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck

Michael Robinson  •  Link

the ticket-office,

L&M Companion: 'Conveniently placed for seamen, between the river and the Navy Office -- until the Fire in a rented house on Tower Hill; afterwards in a house built for the purpose in Colchester Street close by. [Spoiler] In 1683 it moved to a two story wing of the new Navy Office, with a separate entrance from Seething Lane."

JWB  •  Link

I guess most of us learned about Lubeck from "Buddenbrooks" & 'yare' from "Philidelphia Story".

c  •  Link

There is, after all, one thing that stirs Pepys' deepest and most visceral passions: money.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

"...it being a point of our office I was wholly unacquainted in."

Nahhha! What?! Sam Pepys not utterly versed in an aspect of the Naval Office?! What, did Batten and Penn hide it? Or maybe Minnes forgot it?

"Well...It does seem to me...That I do believe I have heard we actually do have a ticket office...Somewhere."

Seriously, Sam nearly got killed over tickets when the seamen rioted at the office earlier...He hadn't studied the workings of the ticket office?

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"I with all my clerks and Carcasse and Whitfield"

L&M: The two latter were clerks of the Ticket Office.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"Hereupon concluded what to write to Hogg and Middleton, which I did, and also with Mr. Oviatt (Sir R. Ford’s son, who is to be our solicitor), to fee some counsel in the Admiralty, but none in town."

Can anyone help me unravel this one:

ONE: L&M says Forde had two sons, John and Samuel, and two daughters (Grace, wife of Peter Proby, a painter, and Mary, wife of Thomas Ducke) alive when his widow Grace died at Bexley, Kent in 1681. So in 1666 another daughter must have been alive and married to John Oviatt, a merchant.

TWO: Our Encyclopedia doesn't have a page for a generic "solicitor," but the common denominator of the available info. indicates that there were specialized clerks employed doing paperwork and interfacing between the public and the bureaucrats in various government offices. For John Oviatt to be both a solicitor and a merchant indicates to me that his father-in-law had so much of this work, his son-in-law was qualified to represent Forde's interests, possibly exclusively. An in-house council, so to speak.

THREE The partners needed Oviatt's help with some Admiralty concerns. Our encyclopedia Admiralty page indicates that the personnel on the Navy Board were the same as, and also known as, the Admiralty. So they were pulling in someone they trusted but appeared to be an outside council to fee/pay for an Admiralty ruling explaining to themselves some legal technicality regarding a prize ship? That sounds like a good idea considering the trouble Sandwich et al were in over prizes, and the current temper of the House of Commons.

FOUR But since the prize ship is in Portsmouth, there was no need to involve anyone in the City of London, just someone discrete who knows the law.

Knowing the difference between the responsibilities of the Navy Board and the Admiralty in Pepys' time would help. Of course, the Diary may explain things better going forward.

And finally, I thought Pepys had sold his interest in the Flying Greyhound weeks ago.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"I with all my clerks and Carcasse and Whitfield to the ticket-office, there to be informed in the method and disorder of the office, which I find infinite great, of infinite concernment to be mended, and did spend till 12 at night to my great satisfaction, it being a point of our office I was wholly unacquainted in."

I don't think Pepys was “wholly unacquainted” with the Navy Ticket Office:
"Monday 12 November 1666
Lay long in bed, and then up, and Mr. Carcasse brought me near 500 tickets to sign, which I did, and by discourse find him a cunning, confident, shrewd man, but one that I do doubt hath by his discourse of the ill will he hath got with my Lord Marquess of Dorchester (with whom he lived), he hath had cunning practices in his time, and would not now spare to use the same to his profit."

Our Wikipedia page on the Admiralty says:
“ The Navy Board was responsible for dockyard management, building and repairing ships, recruitment and *seamen's pay,* and the appointment of warrant officers.”

L&M Companion says the ticket-office was “Conveniently placed for seamen, between the river and the Navy Office -- until the Fire in a rented house on Tower Hill; afterwards in a house built for the purpose in Colchester Street close by."

We know the Ticket Office was near by because the autumn 1666 pay riots spilled over to the Navy Board building.

I think Pepys means that he had been sufficiently occupied figuring out mathematics, the hemp and victualling businesses, improving his house, and how to dress/speak/act/write in a Courtly manner while cooking the books, to leave the task of paying tickets to the Controller and others on the Navy Board. With Coventry warning him that the wrath of the House of Commons was about to descend on them, it behooved him to find out what a mess Carteret and Mennes had made of that department. But he had been well aware of the function before now, and probably chose to be uninformed.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"Knowing the difference between the responsibilities of the Navy Board and the Admiralty in Pepys' time would help."

It occurs to me that the Admiralty didn't do much. That's why the Admiralty wiki page tells us more about the Navy Board than it does the Admiralty. But this page about the Admiralty COURT is more helpful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_court

Briegly, it says England's admiralty courts date to at least the 1360s and Edward III. At that time there were three courts with admirals responsible for the seas to the north, south and west of England. In 1483 the courts were amalgamated into the High Court of Admiralty, administered by the Lord High Admiral of England (i.e. James, Duke of York). The Lord High Admiral appointed judges to the court, and remove them at will. This was amended from 1673, with appointments falling within the purview of the Crown, and from 1689 judges also received an annual stipend and a degree of tenure, holding their positions subject to effective delivery of their duties rather than at the Lord High Admiral's pleasure.

From its inception in 1483 until 1657 the court sat in a disused church in Southwark, and from then until 1665 in Montjoy House (private premises leased from the Dean of St. Paul's Cathedral). In order to escape the plague in 1665, the court was briefly relocated to Winchester and then to Jesus College at Oxford. The plague subsided by 1666, so the court returned to London and until 1671 was located at Exeter House on The Strand before returning to Montjoy House near St Paul's."

The sole survivor of the independent courts of admiralty is the Court of Admiralty for the Cinque Ports. The jurisdiction of the Court of Admiralty of the Cinque Ports extends in an area with boundaries running from the Naze Tower, Essex along the shore to Brightlingsea, then to Shoe Beacon (or Shore Beacon), (to the east of Shoeburyness, Essex), across the mouth of the Thames Estuary to Shellness, Kent, and around the coast to Redcliffe, near Seaford, Sussex. It covers all the sea from Seaford to a point five miles off Cape Grisnez on the coast of France, and the Galloper Sands off the coast of Essex. The last full sitting was in 1914."

Our encyclopedia says, "In December, 1664, the Navy Committee appointed themselves the Commissioners for Prize Goods, Sir Henry Bennet being appointed comptroller, and Lord Ashley treasurer." I don't think Pepys, Penn, Forde and Batten would benefit from Arlington and Ashley's input on the disposition of their prize ship and it's contents.

So I think they are off to the Admiralty Court with their solicitor to get a ruling which will cover their backs and stay out of the purview of Lords Ashley and Arlington.

Bryan  •  Link

SDS: Can anyone help me unravel this one?

Solicitor This is a term in still common usage in the British legal system. A solicitor is a type of lawyer.
From "Concept and Differences between a Lawyer, a Solicitor and a Barrister in UK":
"Lawyer is anyone who could give legal advice. So, this term englobes Solicitors, Barristers, and legal executives. ... Solicitor is a lawyer who gives legal advice and represent the clients in the courts. They deal with business matters, contracts, conveyance, wills, inheritance, etc. ... Barrister is a lawyer who is specialized in representing clients in the Courts. ... Usually, Barristers are called by the Solicitors, and are contracted by them, to give legal advice in the particular area in which they are specialist when the case is brought to Courts." https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/concept-and-dif…

More here: https://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/351/

The Admiralty and the Navy Office
These are the two parts of the British navy. As we know, the Navy Office was responsible for provisioning the navy with ships, men and materials. The Admiralty was responsible for operational matters, i.e. going out to sea to fight for king/queen and country. Both sections of the navy were under control of the Lord High Admiral (James).

From the Encyclopedia:
"In this organization a dual system operated the Lord High Admiral (from 1546) then Commissioners of the Admiralty (from 1628) exercised the function of general control (military administration) of the Navy and they were usually responsible for the conduct of any war, while the actual supply lines, support and services were managed by four principal officers, namely, the Treasurer, Comptroller, Surveyor and Clerk of the Acts, responsible individually for finance, supervision of accounts, Shipbuilding and maintenance of ships, and record of business. These principal officers came to be known as the Navy Board responsible for 'civil administration' of the navy, from 1546 to 1832." https://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/297/#Hist…

Tonyel  •  Link

"Sir R. Ford I find a mighty yare man in this business,"

'Yare, right?'

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Thanks, Bryan ... but what was a solicitor in 1666? I was a legal secretary in Torquay eons ago and dated quite a few of the current variety.

The Admiralty being responsible for operational matters, i.e. going out to sea to fight for king/queen and country is a good clarification. Who were the people on the Admiralty Board? In our encyclopedia someone listed the Navy Board personnel as of 1660 for the Admiralty as well, and I hope that wasn't the case by 1666, or our gang is surely hoisted on their own petard. Albemarle and Rupert -- for instance -- must have been Admiralty.

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