Friday 17 February 1664/65

Up, and it being bitter cold, and frost and snow, which I had thought had quite left us, I by coach to Povy’s, where he told me, as I knew already, how he was handled the other day, and is still, by my Lord Barkeley, and among other things tells me, what I did not know, how my Lord Barkeley will say openly, that he hath fought more set fields —[Battles or actions]— than any man in England hath done. I did my business with him, which was to get a little sum of money paid, and so home with Mr. Andrews, who met me there, and there to the office. At noon home and there found Lewellin, which vexed me out of my old jealous humour. So to my office, where till 12 at night, being only a little while at noon at Sir W. Batten’s to see him, and had some high words with Sir J. Minnes about Sir W. Warren, he calling him cheating knave, but I cooled him, and at night at Sir W. Pen’s, he being to go to Chatham to-morrow. So home to supper and to bed.

28 Annotations

Terry Foreman   Link to this

No doubt war against the Dutch has been declared and the game is on

Southwell [ http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/5042/ ] to Ormond
Written from: Whitehall

Date: 17 February 1665
....
Particulars of the Declaration of War against the Dutch; and also of the proceedings of the Lords Commissioners of Prizes in relation thereto.

----------------------
Thomas Wilde to Sandwich
Written from: Yarmouth

Date: 17 February 1665
....
Sends advices of the Dutch Fleet, seen off the Coast of Suffolk.

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/projects...

Terry Foreman   Link to this

"At noon home and there found Lewellin, which vexed me out of my old jealous humour."

I assume that SP is concerned that Llewellyn has been there with Elizabeth.

Michael Robinson   Link to this

"At noon home and there found Lewellin, ... had some high words with Sir J. Minnes about Sir W. Warren, he calling him cheating knave, but I cooled him,..."

Curious co-incidence;is Deering through intermediaries making a two pronged, hard man / soft man, forcing move to dislodge Warren and gain Pepys' patronage?

The last attempt:-

"Change with Mr. Deering and Luellin to the White Horse tavern in Lombard Street, and there dined with them, he giving me a dish of meat to discourse in order to my serving Deering, which I am already obliged to do, and shall do it, and would be glad he were a man trusty that I might venture something along with him."
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1664/11/25/

Michael Robinson   Link to this

"No doubt war against the Dutch has been declared and the game is on"

Presumably a 'draft' version of the document that has yet to be formally issued.

Spoiler
The Declaration document is dated February 22nd but the formal proclamation by the heralds took place at 10.00 am on March 4th. at Whitehall and later in the day in the City. The prefatory formal order to the King's printers, Bill and Barker in London and Evan Tyler in Edinburgh, for the proclamation also is dated February 22nd.

Carl in Boston   Link to this

Up.
About time he be up. I have heard some people ask: Be you up? Yes, I be up. About time Sam Pepys be up. Anon and he be up betimes.
Now he has his eye on the money. He went to Povey, who treated him kindly and sponsored him to the Royal Society, an honor he will come to treasure, but he got the money from Povey.
If he be up until midnight, how can he be up before 8 AM ?

Robert Gertz   Link to this

I dunno...I often go to bed at 12 am and am up at 4 or 4:30. Necessity, you get used to it.

***
+...how my Lord Barkeley will say openly, that he hath fought more set fields —[Battles or actions]— than any man in England hath done." Hard to follow how that's exactly a charge of gross ineptitude. In fact it sounds like Povy fights his ground in these matters. Nor would one be much inclined to view Barkeley's sneering as anything but a recommendation of one's honesty. Still, difficult to tell...And Sam is hardly an objective witness in these things, given his desire to profit by them.
***
Seeing as one must find it difficult to believe even a Povy would take so kindly the criticism Sam's dispensing in the Diary, it looks as though Sam is showing one face to Povy, and one to the Diary (and perhaps other members of the Committee).

"I don't know, Pepys. A man tries to do his level best and present his accounts honestly..."

"Sad times we live in, Mr. Povy." Idiot dolt. "But one must try and bend to accommodate." Moronic clod.

"I can hardly say what I know to be untrue, Samuel."

"Certainly not, Povy...Certainly not...And yet. There are...Levels of truth." You dim-witted fool, did you just come out of divinity school?!

***

dirk   Link to this

“No doubt war against the Dutch has been declared and the game is on”

Michael is right. War has not been declared yet... Come and see 22 Feb.

Terry Foreman   Link to this

"it looks as though Sam is showing one face to Povy, and one to the Diary (and perhaps other members of the Committee)."

Since SP and Povey have spent so much voluntary time together -- and Pepys was Povey's nominee to the Royal Society -- this has been the most plausible hypothesis for a while; now it seems to be out (to us), and Lord George Berkeley, mechanical contriver, FRS and plantations magnate, is apparently Povey's chief irritant.

dirk   Link to this

"War has not been declared yet"

When I say "Come and see 22 Feb", this is not a real spoiler. It just means we'll find out more about this on 22 Feb. Nevertheless the British had been itchy for war and/or the Dutch had been "behaving badly" - depends on the point of view... There's always two sides to a coin.

Here's the Dutch view:

From: "History of Holland", by George Edmundson, Chapter XV,
http://www.authorama.com/history-of-holland-17....

"There was a powerful war party in England, supported by the Duke of York. It was at his instigation that a strong-handed act took place which aroused intense indignation in Holland. A company called “The Royal African Company” had been formed in which the duke had a large interest. A fleet fitted out by this company under the command of Admiral Holmes seized, in February, 1664, a portion of the coast of Guinea on which the Dutch had settlements. Strong protests meeting with nothing but evasive replies, in all secrecy a squadron was got ready to sail under De Ruyter, nominally to the Mediterranean. Dilatory negotiations were in the meantime being conducted by Beverweert in London, and by Downing at the Hague in regard to this and other grievances, but without any approach to a settlement. Downing in fact was surreptitiously doing his best not to reconcile, but to aggravate differences."

CGS   Link to this

There’s always two sides to a coin.
Not at all, there be always three sides even on a sphere, never forget the do not knows, that gives one the edge..

Terry Foreman   Link to this

The date the war is declared by England according to the Dutch

See the page dirk has provided a link to, sc. “History of Holland”, by George Edmundson, Chapter XV, http://www.authorama.com/history-of-holland-17....
at the very end of which one finds:

"During the winter both powers prepared for a struggle for maritime supremacy which had become inevitable; and at last war was declared by England (March 4, 1665)."

(As dirk says, not exactly a spoiler, rather something to look forward to.)

A. De Araujo   Link to this

"but I cooled him"
Cool

A. Hamilton   Link to this

vexed me out of my old jealous humour

With Terry I read this as Sam expressing a twinge of jealousy strong enough to record it in his diary. Curious then that he should work until midnight before coming home to supper (poor servants had to wait up, I think) and bed. Avoidance?

Michael Robinson   Link to this

On the significance of formally Declaring War.

One influential contemporary opinion: 'On Just or Solemn War According to the Law of Nations on Declarations of War' (Campbell Trans, Lon. 1814) from Hugo Grotius 'De Jure Belli ac Pacis', Paris 1625 (Amst. 1631)
http://www.constitution.org/gro/djbp_303.htm

An English translation by Clement Barksdale appeared in London in 1654, rpr. 1655.

Roger   Link to this

'Up, and it being bitter cold, and frost and snow, which I had thought had quite left us,...'

I was thinking just yesterday that if the average temperature for the whole of February 1665 was just 1C(see Met Office stats to in right panel) then a very cold snap is/was due. This must be it.
To put this in context,...this current chilly week in London, Feb 2008, is seeing average daily temperatures (ie, roughly, max plus min divided by 2) of about 3C, and perhaps about 7C so far this month. So, in the days before central heating etc, this can't have been very pleasant, especially for the poor. No wonder some slept in/on their day clothes (something I remember doing pre paper-round during the cold winter in Londinium 1962-63!)

Pedro   Link to this

• Beverweert in London, and by Downing at the Hague in regard to this and other grievances, but without any approach to a settlement. Downing in fact was surreptitiously doing his best not to reconcile, but to aggravate differences.”

The site that Dirk quotes also says that Downing worked underhand to exacerbate the disputes and to prevent a settlement of the differences between the two peoples, and that Beverweert tried to bring about a friendly understanding, but was fruitless.

I think this is akin to regarding Holmes, by exceeding his commission, as the cause of the Second Dutch War. Downing was indeed a devious and unscrupulous individual, who as a Cromwellian, understood the grievences and “pretentions” that had failed to be addressed after the First Dutch War at the Peace of Westminster. But to regard him, as an individual, as the main cause for the breakdown of talks gives him more credit, if that is the right word, than he deserves.

Charles by placing Downing at The Hague would be fully aware of his character, and like Holmes, could be regarded as the right man for the job. There seems that there was little chance of either side giving any quarter in discussions.

I believe the best description of the situation is given by Antonia Fraser who likens the English and Dutch as two dogs on either side of the Channel growling at each other. I was inevitable that only one of them can be top dog.

On a lighter note for the older ex-pats…The Day War broke Out..

http://monologues.co.uk/004/Day_War_Broke_Out.htm

Carl in Boston   Link to this

Charles by placing Downing at The Hague would be fully aware....
Downing? Downing? Is this The Downing who gives his name to
10 Downing Street?
Curious Americans want to know.

Pedro   Link to this

Curious Americans want to know.

Brought up in New England, Downing was one of the earliest graduates of Harvard University. He came back to England during the Civil War, and by 1650 he was Cromwell's Scoutmaster General or intelligence chief. At the heart of Cromwell's inner circle, he enjoyed a position of great power.

http://www.primeminister.gov.uk/output/Page178.asp

Terry Foreman   Link to this

"Is this The Downing who gives his name to
10 Downing Street?"

And all of the others nearby. George Downing http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/106/

He was Pepys's Master when the Diary began, indeed on its first day: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1660/01/01/

Australian Susan   Link to this

11 Downing St is the official residence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so when Gordon Brown became PM, he just had to move next door! Do other countries have official residences for their Treasurers? I know Australia doesn't. I'm not sure that Downing was really a very worthy person to have become so posthumously famous because of worldwide knowledge of Downing St.

Carl in Boston   Link to this

George Downing, now we know HE did it, he did it ALL. Thank you all for fluffing out the story, especially that he was a diplomat, which I see from reading:
Downing was undoubtedly a man of great political and diplomatic ability, but his talents were rarely employed for the advantage of his country and his character was marked by all the mean vices, treachery, avarice, servility and ingratitude.

Ralph Berry   Link to this

Auutralian Susan Re official residences.

Downing must have started a tradition that travelled. New Zealand provides a residence in Wellington to every cabinet minister.

dirk   Link to this

Waiting for war with the Dutch

War will eventually be declared by the British on 4 March, but the letter quoted by Terry in the first annotation on this page (from the Carte Papers) clearly suggest that the war declaration had already been prepared by the 17 Feb. The British were just waiting for any valid excuse to officially declare war, without being labelled the agressor. That excuse will come. Just a little patience, Pepysians...

Paul Chapin   Link to this

Do other countries have official residences for their Treasurers?

Certainly not the United States, which only established an official residence for the Vice President, nominally the number two person in the government, in 1974. Walter Mondale, Jimmy Carter's Vice President, was the first occupant. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_One_Observa...

GrahamT   Link to this

George Downing built and named Downing street, though it wasn't completed until 2 years after his death.
It wasn't until 1732 though that Sir Robert Walpole, as First Lord of the Treasury (old title for Prime Minister) was given number 10, and his deputy, the 2nd Lord of the Treasury, number 11. Though the titles later changed to Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer, the holders still retain the old titles too.
A bit of history here:
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/about/about_downi...

Don McCahill   Link to this

For the record, Canada has official residences for the prime minister, leader of the opposition, and the governor general. Other cabinet members and MPs shift for themselves (not a hardship with the generous housing allowances provided).

Michael Robinson   Link to this

"First Lord of the Treasury (old title for Prime Minister) "

The Ministers of The Crown Act (1937)," To give statutory recognition to the existence of the position of Prime Minister, ...," still draws the distinction between the office of 'First Lord of the Treasury' and the position of 'Prime Minister.' And,

"To this day prime ministers occupy Number 10 in the role of First Lord of the Treasury. The brass letter box on the black front door is still engraved with this title."

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page180.asp
(includes a photo pf the letterbox)

djc   Link to this

First Lord of the Treasury

The political settlement of the later C17 left the King in power but dependent on Parliament for the money whithout which there was no effective power. Hence the need for minister with sufficient influence in Parliament to gain approval for funding the king's policy. Thus the FLT becomes the King's Prime Minister. Given another century or so and power has shifted the Prime minister with a parliamentary majority rather than the monarch. Yet leaves the C19 parliament with a horror of public expenditure which is seen as granting money that might be used to strenthen the crown against parliament.

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