Saturday 11 June 1664

Up and to the office, where we sat all the morning, where some discourse arose from Sir G. Carteret and Mr. Coventry, which gives me occasion to think that something like a war is expected now indeed, though upon the ‘Change afterwards I hear too that an Embassador is landed from Holland, and one from their East India Company, to treat with ours about the wrongs we pretend to. Mr. Creed dined with me, and thence after dinner by coach with my wife only to take the ayre, it being very warm and pleasant, to Bowe and Old Ford; and thence to Hackney. There ‘light, and played at shuffle-board, eat cream and good churies; and so with good refreshment home. Then to my office vexed with Captain Taylor about the delay of carrying down the ship hired by me for Tangier, and late about that and other things at the office. So home to supper and to bed.

31 Annotations

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...one from their East India Company, to treat with ours..." Why do I get the feeling the formal ambassidor to the Crown is less important?

The equivalent being say an ambassidor from Haliburton sent to treat with one from a large German defense contractor? (Oh, right they already have the vp to do that.)

***
"You want me 'ackney to take ye to 'ackney, sir?" the coachman eyes Sam. "'ere, now. Are you tryin' to be funny, sir?"

***
"Why Bess, this war could end all those things that give life meaning...Golf, tennis...Shuffle-board."

***

"...vexed with Captain Taylor about the delay of carrying down the ship hired by me for Tangier..."

Hmmn? Who paid (bribed) who 26Ls?

Robert Gertz   Link to this

ambassador...

Robert Gertz   Link to this

ambassador...

***
"So I unterstand you English wish us to give up our New Netherlands colony, abandon our Guinea posts, renounce our claims to the South Seas?"

"That is correct, ambassador."

"Or else what follows?"

"Bloody constraint. For if you hide title to these lands, even in your hearts, there will our King rake for it."

"I see..." Smile. "Yes, knowing your King so vell we haf something else in mind." Rolls out map of world. "Greater New Netherlands" marked as stretching across the American Atlantic coast from Canada to Florida. "Province of New Holland" covering England, Scotland, and Wales.

"This, sir..." sniff... "Is as ridiculous as the idea of a Dutch prince toppling our King from his throne."

"Give us a few years, sir." Smile.

***

Terry F   Link to this

"and one from their East India Company, to treat with ours"

Yes, RG, peculiar by our standards, if you and I take the matters of company and nation-state agency to have been worked out otherwise in the 343 intervening years than do the actors from Haliburton and Blackwater, e.g..

In the 1664 case there is surely the Dutch understanding that the merchants -- in Guinea and in Parliament -- are at least in cahoots with the throne.

Martin   Link to this

Shuffleboard!
I used to go watch geezers play this in the park in New Jersey. Apparently what Sam played was the table version, known earlier as "shovillaborde", a variation upon "shovel board".

cape henry   Link to this

There is a kind of airiness that overlays the heavier context of this entry - the cherries, the cream, the 'ayre' itself.A somewhat pleasant summer Saturday for a man with so many responsibilities facing a little war.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

Not exactly those halcyon summer days of '14 terminating in the horror of WWI but...

Terry F   Link to this

Absent Dirk: the letter Robert Gertz mentioned in a post for 6 June.

Admiral Sir William Penn to Lane
Written from: Portsmouth Dock

Date: 11 June 1664

Shelfmark: MS. Carte 33, fol(s). 407
Document type: Original

Has been now, for a month past, employed by special command of the Duke of York [at Portsmouth] in the outfit of some ships for sea. ...

Entreat's Lane's support for his, the writer's, suit to the Duke of Ormond, that before his Grace shall consent to move the King for the restoration to their respective estates, in the county of Cork, of Poore of Inchy, and of Poore, of Shanegarry, the writer may have a hearing from his Grace upon that question. ... http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/projects...

---
Admiral Penn has not been quite as busy as, for rhetorical purpose, he makes out. Actually, this is day 22 that Sir W, Penn has been "employed...in the outfit of some ships for sea," but it may also seem like a month. http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1664/05/19/

Cumsalisgrano   Link to this

Be ye not forget those special forces that be sweeping up gold in the Carib bean then known as gentlemen with Marques to remove the terro issts at sea that be called Spanish galleons, One of the Privateer be a well known character by the name Morgan who sailed under Admiral Ming.
a story :
privateer of Welsh birth, who made a name in the Caribbean as a leader of sea pirates and buccaneers. He is one of the most famous pirates.

not verified : His uncle Edward Morgan was Lieutenant-Governor of Jamaica after the Restoration of Charles II of England in 1660, and Henry Morgan married his uncle's daughter Mary. Therefore it is more likely that he was the "Captain Morgan" who joined the fleet of Christopher Myngs in 1663 and accompanied the expedition of John Morris and Jackman when the Spanish settlements at Vildemos, Trujillo and Granada were taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgan

Pedro   Link to this

Captain Taylor.

From Cumsalisgrano's background...Some confusion in Two Talours...

The link goes to Captain Sylas Taylor, but I am not sure that Sam is refering here to the Sylas Taylor mentioned on the 10th of June, being an old acquaintance.

"Thence into the Parke, and met and walked with Captain Sylas Taylor, my old acquaintance while I was of the Exchequer, and Dr. Whore, talking of musique, and particularly of Mr. Berckenshaw's way, which Taylor magnifies mightily, and perhaps but what it deserves, but not so easily to be understood as he and others make of it."

http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1664/06/10/

There also exists a Captain Robert Taylor who captained the Bendish in April 1665. (SPOILER?).

From the Journals of Sandwich by Anderson...

"It was resolved to send for Captain Taylor to view the defects of the fleet and to order those ships into the river that must of necessity go thither...

Sir William Batten and Captain Taylor went to the Duke to view the defects thereof. They told the Duke that the principal stores of all kinds were at Harwich, and Mr Gauden likewise arrived with an account of victualswere ready for the fleet at Harwich also."

Xjy   Link to this

"churies"

Kentish spelling if I remember aright. Cf spelling and pronunciation of "bury", "Canterbury".

Michael Robinson   Link to this

Captain Taylor

L&M, via the index volume, identify this as Captain John Taylor, shipbuilder, d. 1670; Master-Shipwright at Chatham under the Commonwealth who resumed a private business at Wapping when replaced by Phineas Pett in 1660. In 1663, in his Navy White Book, Pepys records receiving money from him wrapped in a handkerchief. (I NWB pp 3-4) from L&M Companion.

*Spoiler* the ship hired for Tangier in later diary entries is identified as the 'Eagle.'

Pedro   Link to this

The Eagle.

Thanks Michael, Phil has already linked the ship to a background for the Eagle.

Xjy   Link to this

"Shuffleboard"

If this is the table version, I'd call it "shove-ha'penny", of course. Speaking of which, when was cribbage invented, I wonder...

Pedro   Link to this

"an Embassador is landed from Holland,"

"In June a Dutch Ambassador finally appeared, in the shape of a weak and vapouring Van Goch, he received assurances that Downing (currently in England) would soon return, and that Holmed, if found guilty, would be punished.

While Van Goch confirmed in Charles the impession stereotyped by Downing, that Holland would not fight, across the water de Witt harboured, till the end of August, a like delusion. But he was not a mind that left things to chance..."

(British Foreign Policy 1660-1672 by Feiling)

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...about the wrongs we pretend to."

A little ranting and rug chewing, demanding that the "natural rights" of the English for living space must be recognized and that your armed forces are poised on the border, ready to march...Perhaps wave a vial of white powder, claiming it's a deadly disease Dutch agents planned to release. A few artists' sketches of installations along the Dutch coast ("But these are dikes, Mr. Ambassador." "Oh? You say they are dikes, Herr Ambassador. But His Majesty's Intelligence Service knows different!"), with hand-wringing claims that these are secret manufactories of fiendish weapons intended for use in England. And of course a sterling insistence that England is marching to free the people of Guinea from the beastly Dutch Hun ("You are ending slavery, Mr. Ambassador?" "Certainly not. But our slavery will be less beastly.").

Mary   Link to this

shuffleboard.

Shuffleboard and shove-ha'penny are different games altogether. Follow Phil's link for information on shuffleboard (Dutch sjoelbak).

Pedro   Link to this


A couple more interesting obsevations from Feiling book...

After the English Parliament had discussed the question of pretentions the Dutch East India stock rose 15 percent, but they were promptly prorouged, and reprorouged by successive stages...

Also on a wider European basis it was beleived that Munster and Brandenberg would invade the Dutch.

Don McCahill   Link to this

According to John Aubrey[1], cribbage was created by the English poet Sir John Suckling in the early 17th century

From wikipedia

language hat   Link to this

"the wrongs we pretend to"

Just to remind everyone, "pretend" in 17th-century usage did not imply falsehood -- we would now say "the wrongs we are complaining about" or the like.

language hat   Link to this

"churies"

Oddly, the OED entry for "cherry" gives no hint of any such spelling (and a sitewise search for "churies" and "chury" gives no results). But apparently the surname Chury is a variant of Cherry:
http://www.historicalnames.com/namelistdetail_c...
So I guess we can accept the identification here.

Cumsalisgrano   Link to this

Talours: one be an olde Sea dog that can bark out Sailing orders, the tother be a musical type that rather be with Playford, singing solders ditties.

A Captaine be a captain be it land or sea, not quite the specialist career that it has become, then under the any guise, a leader be leader, as long as he knows his non coms can do the job at hand.

Jesse   Link to this

"played at shuffle-board"

From a 'quick definition' for board http://www.onelook.com/?w=board&ls=a 'noun: a flat portable surface (usually rectangular) designed for board games.' I'm guessing that what Pepys really played this date was a tabletop game and not the sticks and pucks version that it later became.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"the wrongs we pretend to"

I don't quite agree, LH...While of course pretend has other meanings at this time, I think the jury's still out on interpretation here and Sam may very well mean to imply a lack of faith in this noble war's glorious reason for being. Given Coventry's denunciation of the case for the war as rather flimsy a few days ago and Sam's concerns, I think the case can be made that he does not perceive England's proclaimed wrongs to be valid. But we'll have to await more confirmation.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"the wrongs we pretend to"

I don't quite agree, LH...While of course pretend has other meanings at this time, I think the jury's still out on interpretation here and Sam may very well mean to imply a lack of faith in this noble war's glorious reason for being. Given Coventry's denunciation of the case for the war as rather flimsy a few days ago and Sam's concerns, I think the case can be made that Sam does not perceive England's proclaimed wrongs to be valid. But we'll have to await more confirmation.

Pedro   Link to this

"the wrongs we pretend to"

Sam is repeating the term that had been used for many years in relation to the Dutch question, and I believe it appeared in the Commons and the Lords under the form "pretentions".

The Dutch Ambassador has just arrived and in discussions he will refer to the English pretentions. In previous discussions with the Dutch in 1661, the English had accepted in principle to withdraw all Indian pretentions before January 1659. Clarendon adhered to this against much opposition in order to keep the peace.

GrahamT   Link to this

Shuffleboard: It is evident from Wheatley's annotations that the game he describes is what we now call shove ha'penny and Shakespeare called shove-groat shilling. The game described with pucks and sticks is completely foreign to me, so if that is what Pepys played, it somehow got lost from the English compendium of games between then and the 1950's, when I played traditional games at playtime.

Andrew Hamilton   Link to this

"the wrongs we pretend to"

Pedro's note about the use of the word pretend in a legal framework should clarify what would otherwise be an ambiguity. OED cites Fuller (read by Pepys)as using the word in its pejorative sense (to profess falsely) in 1654: "Fuller Two Serm. 37 Leastwise they seemingly pretended it [real piety]; and Joshua charitably beleeved it." In the slightly less pejorative sense of
feign, the OED cites, from 1662, "J. Davies tr. Mandelslo's Trav. 227 He will pretend not to have seen him."

language hat   Link to this

I am not, obviously, saying "pretend" *could not* mean "allege falsely" at the time; of course it could. The difference is that now that's *all* it means, and we have to avoid reading that back into the past. When Fuller writes "Leastwise they seemingly pretended it [real piety]; and Joshua charitably beleeved it," it's clear from the sentence itself what he means, and in "He will pretend not to have seen him" I presume it's clear from context that he had in fact seen him. Here it's not clear, and we cannot assume anything about what he means.

Pedro   Link to this

Rather a long entry (and perhaps no suitable background to refer it to) but may be of interest is what the Lords actually said, and what Coventry conveyed to Sam.

Report of the Conference concerning Foreign Trade.

The Lord Chamberlain reported the Effect of the last Conference with the House of Commons, which was managed by Mr. Clifford; who told their Lordships, "That the House of Commons had taken into Consideration the great Obstruction that was in our Foreign Trade; and they had good Cause to believe that the Hollanders were the Occasion; and gave several Instances of it; and said, That the greatest Sufferers by them were,
"1. The East India Company; who chiefly insist upon the Depredations and Wrongs done to them since 1656, to the Value of One Hundred Forty and Eight Thousand Pounds, in Ships and Goods taken from them by the Dutch; and Eighty-seven Thousand Pounds Loss, in a reasonable Valuation, in their Factories burnt and spoiled by them; most of which hath been done since His Majesty's happy Restoration.
"They also complain, that Pularoone hath been possessed by the Dutch these Two and Forty Years, so far against all Right and Justice, that The States themselves do not pretend a Title to it; but in all Treaties have accorded for the Surrender of it, and yet do still forcibly detain it; and more especially it was agreed upon the last Treaty that it should be delivered up; and to that Purpose Letters were written by The States, and Two Ships were sent to take Possession of the said Island, which amounted to the Charge of Twenty and Three Thousand Pounds the last Year; yet, contrary to this Agreement, The States privately writ Letters under-hand, that it should not be delivered up.
"This Company complains of several other Ways and Methods that the Dutch practise in India to obstruct our Trade:
"1. They pretend War against all Places where the English plant any Factories for Trade, and then declare War against the Kings of that Place, and send some Ships to lie before them, to hinder the English of their Trade; so that the War they make is but in Shew against those Territories, but in Reality against the English.
"2. By Pretence of Agreement with the Kings of those Countries for the chief Commodities, they hinder the English from any Trade, and shoot at our Boats that go to land, alledging they have bought all the Commodities, when in Reality there is no such Thing.
"3. When these Arts fail them, they do in a hostile Manner seize and keep the Ships and Vessels of the English.
"4. They proclaim themselves Lords of the South Sea; and, in Contempt, shoot at, and use other Indignities to, our Royal Flag, thereby affronting His Majesty and this Nation.
"Another Sort of Sufferers are the Turky Company; who complain, That, since His Majesty's Restoration, the Dutch have taken Two Ships from them, to the Value of One Hundred and Ten Thousand and Five Hundred Pounds, under Pretence of Letters of Mart from the King of Spaine, after that King had recalled all such Patents, and had proclaimed Amity with His Majesty. This Dutch Man of War was both built and manned in Holland.
"The Royal Company complain,
"1. That the Dutch have endeavoured to drive them from the Coast of Affrica, and deprive them of their whole Trade, by following their Ships from Port to Port, to interrupt by Force any Commerce between them and the Negroes.
"2. They have persuaded the Negroes to destroy their Servants and Forts.
"3. They have seized and detained their Goods and Boats.
"4. They have lately taken into their Hands, and do now possess, the Fort of Cabo Corse, which doth rightfully belong to the English.
"5. They have shot at His Majesty's Royal Flag, in offering to go ashore to our own Factories.
"6. They have sent Two Protests to the English, requiring them to desist from settling their Factories upon that Coast; and if they refuse, they will use Violence; and declare the Eng. to be the Cause of War.
"Also the Portugall Merchants complain, That a Dutch Man of War, called The Sluce of Flushing, did assault and keep The Brazill Frigot, belonging to them, worth Sixteen Thousand Pounds.
"Likewise the Traders into Affrica, before the Incorporation of the Royal Company, complain of Losses received of the Dutch, of at least Three Hundred and Thirty Thousand Pounds; some of their Ships sunk and burnt; and, after taking of some other Ships, their Men killed and poisoned in cold Blood, others stript and turned ashore in the barbarous Countries; Four of which afterward, by great Providence, returned into England; Two of them testified it in Holland, vivâ voce, and to the Faces of those that had done the Wrong.
"For all which Injuries and Wrongs, they have not yet made the least Satisfaction, notwithstanding Proofs have been made upon Oath in the Admiralty, and Satisfaction hath been demanded by His Majesty's Envoys Extraordinary.
"All which amount,

£.
By Damages upon Ships and Goods to
the East India Company, unto148,000
For burning and spoiling their Factories,87,000
Unto the Turky Company,110,500
Unto the Portugall Merchants,16,000
To the particular Traders to the Coast
of Affrica,330,000
For Two Ships Charge to receive Pularoone,23,000
Sum Total, £.714,500

"Besides the Loss of Pularoone, which, by a just Compensation, is above Four Millions."
The House of Commons, upon serious Consideration of this Business, have made a Vote; to which they desire their Lordships Concurrence.

From: 'House of Lords Journal Volume 11: 22 April 1664', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 11: 1660-1666, pp. 598-600. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com.... Date accessed: 13 June 2007.

Australian Susan   Link to this

and "Prevent" could mean at that time "go before [someone]"

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