Wednesday 21 August 1661

This morning by appointment I went to my father, and after a morning draft he and I went to Dr. Williams, but he not within we went to Mrs. Terry, a daughter of Mr. Whately’s, who lately offered a proposal of her sister for a wife for my brother Tom, and with her we discoursed about and agreed to go to her mother this afternoon to speak with her, and in the meantime went to Will. Joyce’s and to an alehouse, and drank a good while together, he being very angry that his father Fenner will give him and his brother no more for mourning than their father did give him and my aunt at their mother’s death, and a very troublesome fellow I still find him to be, that his company ever wearys me. From thence about two o’clock to Mrs. Whately’s, but she being going to dinner we went to Whitehall and there staid till past three, and here I understand by Mr. Moore that my Lady Sandwich is brought to bed yesterday of a young Lady, and is very well. So to Mrs. Whately’s again, and there were well received, and she desirous to have the thing go forward, only is afeard that her daughter is too young and portion not big enough, but offers 200l. down with her. The girl is very well favoured, and a very child, but modest, and one I think will do very well for my brother: so parted till she hears from Hatfield from her husband, who is there; but I find them very desirous of it, and so am I. Hence home to my father’s, and I to the Wardrobe, where I supped with the ladies, and hear their mother is well and the young child, and so home.

14 Annotations

First Reading

Louis  •  Link

"The girl is very well favoured, and a very child,"

---in her deportment, and understanding, more than her chronological age? Discuss.

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"a proposal for her sister for a wife for my brother"
No romanticism here; very practical people; all the family involved.

dirk  •  Link

"morning draft"

The "morning draught/draft" has been extensively dicussed in the background info, but it's interesting to know that there also existed something called "posset" - although I don't remember Sam mentioning it anywhere so far.

Posset: a drink taken before going to bed; it was milk curdled with wine. "In his morning's draught ? his concerves or cates ? and when he goeth to bedde his posset smoaking hot.” ? Man in the Moone (1609).

E. Cobham Brewer 1810-1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

[Middle English poshet, possot : perhaps Old French *posce (Latin posca, drink of vinegar and water from potare, to drink; potable + Latin esca, food from edere, to eat.) + Middle English hot]

vicente  •  Link

RE: Romance: 'tis only for the lucky ones: basics first: food and ale to eat and drink, then loin clothe then a roof, then one can indulge in the finer points of living. Can she boil an egg? darn socks, 'tis a list that one checks off before running oft to having a fleete marriage .
"...the pangs of romantic adolescent love could expect no sympathy.... contracted for sound reasons of compatibilty and property than 'le coup de foudre'. As Hannah Wolley put it: 'of all the acts of disobedience, that of marrying against the consent of Parents is the highest. Children are so much the goods and chattels of a parent, that they cannot without a kind of theft give themselves away without the allowance of the that have the right in them...." p 173 Eliza Picard Rest: Lond: more ref: 159/160.
then page 224/232: summary the female was a chattel of the Male of the species. be it Papa or be it Le Seigneur[baron]if and when the Baron kicked the bucket then every thing changed.{see p 225}

Australian Susan  •  Link

"a wife for my brother Tom"
Sam is being all the sober and responsible person here, *but* he married for love, surely! No-one could describe his match as a good contract. Is it that now the Pepys family has more solidity in the world and therefore has to be more circumspect in making marriage contracts??

Mary  •  Link

"a wife for my brother Tom"

£200 seems quite a large portion to be offered with a potential bride for brother Tom; the Whateleys must be impressed by the prospect of a connection by marriage with Sam the Rising Man. Unless, of course, Mother Pepys’s initial fond imaginings of wealth to come to the family as a result of Uncle Robert’s death have been noised abroad.
This, coupled with news that Father Pepys is about to retire to the country, leaving Tom to run the tailoring business in London, might have been enough to persuade them that so large a sum could prove a good investment.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Tom Pepys has/had a speech impediment and seems to lack any of Sam's drive (though he's taking over what's probably a pretty good business, giving him some matrimonial value)-add in the natural shyness resulting from his difficulty, plus the normal custom of the day- and all encourages him to turn to successful brother Sam for aid. It is interesting that Sam makes no reference to his own dowryless marriage, though I suspect Mom and Pop Pepys make poor Beth's life a living hell by constantly harping on it whenever possible.

One wonders how Beth feels listening to the negotiation plans...Did she hopefully wait for Sam to ask Tom if there was anyone he might care for, allowing love as a factor?...Or did she put in a vote for the practical, perhaps feeling Tom was not of the same cloth as her Sam?...Was she pleased to compare Sam's risking fortune and career to win her or heartbroken to find him solely concerned now with what the girl could bring in?

vicente  •  Link

Thomas : He be 12 months or so younger than our go getter; he be male and 27 and foot loose and fancy free: and he be master of his own business soon; not a bad catch in normal circumstances {so he stutters or a bit dyslexic }. He be trade, not fancy like, still hard to find a young man who has his own roof, bed, sheets, and can afford a turkey and is connected to the betters, good looking girls way out of the mean streets of life, and not to be in service to some rake[downstairs or upstairs], for when she becomes a burden [eats,and needs ribbons too I don't doubt but earns nowt] to her pops then out of the house, remember her father is responsible for her til she becomes some other mans burden. Boys have a choices, if free can get apprenticed, or if good at latin can get into the church, otherwise its fend for oneself and let lady Luck be ones guidelines , no dole or helping hand.
Many a girl ended up in Ma Cresswells or the like there too, as pops did not want nowt to do with his brazen daughter hussey,she was eatin' 'weren't she'?[Still a problem for many girls in this modern age, in so many parts of the world.]

Pauline  •  Link

" Lord Hinchingbroke and his brother, and saw them go out by coach toward Rye in their way to France..."
Edward and Sidney, at ages 13 and 11, are off to be schooled in France. Any ideas as to likely school and how this differed from being educated in England at this time?

vicente  •  Link

Sandwich wanted the French lessons to be the real thing and to be understood by the continental peoples and not mumbled [swallowed]and of course Vesailles is a heady place to be.

Second Reading

Dick Wilson  •  Link

I do not understand why Will Joyce is angry. It sounds like he was being paid to mourn Aunt Fenner, but not paid enough. Could that be the case? Why would anybody pay him, and his brother, anything?

eileen d.  •  Link

Dick Wilson, I found this article on a site for collectors of mourning jewelry and related artifacts.

"...Samuel Pepys (1633-1703), whose diaries show a great insight into culture at the time, have a great insight into several funerals throughout his lifetime and the impact fashion and cost had in his life. Pepy’s Aunt Fenner died on August 1661 and Pepy’s father carried out funeral arrangements. As his father was a tailor, the family could not afford to purchase mourning for relatives, but instead tailored it themselves. The sentiment he wrote was ‘all in mourning, doing him the greatest honour, the world believing that he did give us it.’ ..."…

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"The girl is very well favoured, and a very child, but modest, and one I think will do very well for my brother"

This proposal was still alive two years later, but came to nothing. Wheatley appears to have been a tradesman and may have been a distant relative of Pepys. (L&M note)

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