Thursday 15 March 1665/66

Lay till it was full time to rise, it being eight o’clock, and so to the office and there sat till almost three o’clock and then to dinner, and after dinner (my wife and Mercer and Mrs. Barbary being gone to Hales’s before), I and my cozen Anthony Joyce, who come on purpose to dinner with me, and he and I to discourse of our proposition of marriage between Pall and Harman, and upon discourse he and I to Harman’s house and took him to a taverne hard by, and we to discourse of our business, and I offered 500l., and he declares most ingenuously that his trade is not to be trusted on, that he however needs no money, but would have her money bestowed on her, which I like well, he saying that he would adventure 2 or 300l. with her. I like him as a most good-natured, and discreet man, and, I believe, very cunning. We come to this conclusion for us to meete one another the next weeke, and then we hope to come to some end, for I did declare myself well satisfied with the match. Thence to Hales’s, where I met my wife and people; and do find the picture, above all things, a most pretty picture, and mighty like my wife; and I asked him his price: he says 14l., and the truth is, I think he do deserve it. Thence toward London and home, and I to the office, where I did much, and betimes to bed, having had of late so little sleep, and there slept… [Continued tomorrow. P.G.]

15 Annotations

Terry Foreman   Link to this

John Evelyn's Diary

15th March, 1666. My charge now amounted to near £7,000 [weekly].

language hat   Link to this

"I asked him his price: he says 14l., and the truth is, I think he do deserve it."

I'm surprised he didn't drop dead of shock when Pepys agreed to the bill without quibbling -- must have been a first!

cape henry   Link to this

Hales was obviously not just a good painter, but one who had refined his salesmanship. Bravo.

cape henry   Link to this

Is it just me, or does it seem that the deal for Pall is going way too smoothly?

Michael Robinson   Link to this

" ... I asked him his price: he says 14l., and the truth is, I think he do deserve it ..."

Since SP had visited Lely ( http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1662/10/20/ ) and made exclamations about purchasing a copy portrait he probably was aware of current 'going rates' at the top end of the market:

"By 1660 Lely's prices had advanced to L 15 for for a head and L 25 for a half-length; ..."

Ellis Waterhouse 'Painting in Britain 1530-1790' London: 1978 (4th. edn.) p. 98

Todd Bernhardt   Link to this

"the truth is, I think he do deserve it"

Ah, LH, I think the phrase above shows that our man may not have agreed to the price right away, but perhaps bartered a bit (or at least kept a poker face)...?

A. Hamilton   Link to this

I am struck by the account of going to a tavern to discuss the terms of the arrangement for Pall's marriage as though it was just another deal for Sam to negotiate. I'm left to wonder what Pall knows about this and what her reaction may be to the twists and turns of the search. At the risk of spoiling the story, I would like to know, how did it all turn out?

Nate   Link to this

I’m left to wonder what Pall knows about this and what her reaction may be...

But she's a woman, an unmarried dependent woman!

She probably has not spoken out strongly against the match or Sam would have mentioned it. Having money in her own name is certainly a plus, is it not?

phoenix   Link to this

My reading of the tavern negotiations is that Harman isn't interested and is trying (unreliable trade, no need of money)to not offer offense by outright refusing a rather substantial and influential man. Sam sees him as cunning - perhaps - and perhaps Sam is misreading him entirely. It's possible that Pall can't be sold at any price.

Roger   Link to this

March 1666 'Temperature 6C/43F' No great reference to the weather yet from Mr Pepys this month. March 1666 ranks slightly warmer than average in the great scheme of things (over the last 350 years) but cooler (generally) than in recent decades. A 'surprise' awaits Sam and London the following March!
A better link to Met Office data re these temperatures is probably now http://hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcet/mly_cet_mean...

cape henry   Link to this

I'm inclined to think that phoenix has gotten the exchange with Harman exactly.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...till it was full time to rise, it being eight o’clock..."

Eight o'clock!!? Pepys!? I know the new philosophy is to stop and smell the roses but... Oh, what has happened to my four am brother? Think of all we get done so long before the late hour of eight, Sam and pull yourself together.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

Interesting that 500Ls was what Uncle Wight offered Bess...Is that the going rate for women in their 20s at this time?

cgs   Link to this

500l invested correctly at 8% would yield an annual income of 40 quid, which was an income that could provide the basics+,bread chesse, water, shifts and paliass in a garret and allowing one to have a mayde.

Actually a couple with that kind of income would be sitting pretty.

A million today invested in safe type of securities, eg your local bank, provides less than a sustaining income today, requiring food stamps [not available to the self supporting], of course one could listen to the well healed and find a nice stock like Average Investing Guesses or some standard fraudator.
Samuel is up there with Barons and Esquires if Eliza Picard be correct in her numbers [top 8%]. Sam had no need to play with Derivatives and other methods of counting the future generations of chickens to be eaten before the finding the egg in the nest box.

Numbers mean nowt, only the vitals and T shirt and tent count.

Michael Robinson   Link to this

"500l invested correctly at 8% would yield an annual income of 40 quid, ... Actually a couple with that kind of income would be sitting pretty."

That be close to the sum, L50 p.a., that SP's parents live within at Brampton ...

"I advised my father to good husbandry and to living within the compass of 50l. a year, and all in such kind words, as not only made, them but myself to weep, and I hope it will have a good effect"
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1663/05/01/

"letters to my father of great import in the settling of our affairs, and putting him upon a way [of] good husbandry, I promising to make out of my own purse him up to 50l. per annum,"
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1663/05/08/

Between a Son and His Father: Sam's Letter to John Sr regarding Brampton
http://www.pepysdiary.com/indepth/2006/05/17/be...

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