“The thought of Sam extracting the clove from one piece of sticky cake and hiding it in another reminds me that back then no one had the first notion of germs and how they operate.”
At the time when everything anyone came in contact must have been teeming with with bacteria, personal hygiene being unknown, I doubt the handling of a single clove would have made much difference.
I wanted to remind myself of the lyrics to Barbara Allen, so did an Internet search and found this: . “Looking for Barbara Allen? Get Cell Phone #, Address, Pics & more.”
Who knew?
I did find interesting history and other information at
Thanks, Colin, I think! Barbers were tooth pullers then. They were called barber surgeons. No antiseptics, no anesthetics, probably little washing of hands.
Mweey Christmas ro you, too, SDS. We are well and dry and more important, unburnt. We made it through the latest fires unscathed, though some friends lost their houses.
MarkS wrote: “The one mitigating factor for Pepys is that he never went further than "doing what I would with my hands about her". It seems he considered actual sex as going too far. There is no suggestion that she was unwilling, though of course that is no excuse, then or now.”
According to the encyclopedia here, she was “barely pre pubescent in the two years Pepys knew her”
Different times, yes, but still outrageous behavior. I wouldn’t call it a “mitigating” factor.
No idea why he refers to as her as “Mrs.” Her birth name was Tooker. If she’d been married she would have been known by her husband’s name.
“Up, and after some pleasant discourse with my wife (though my head full of business) I out and left her to go home, and myself to the office, and thence by water to the Duke of Albemarle’s, and so back again and find my wife gone.”
Did he ever find out where she was?
“. . . after eating something, to bed, my mind eased of a great deal of figures and castings.”
A. Hamilton: “Don Macahill's remark reminds me that I made a similar suggestion in a book on the defense budget circa 1972. It was called "Helpless Giant" and in the introduction, which I wrote but which was signed by Rep. Les Aspin D Wis., I suggested, as I recall, that members of Congress take down the photographs and models of new weapons systems on their office walls and replace them with pictures of the poor.”
“and there going up I did upon the stairs overtake three pretty mayds or women and took them up with me, and I did ‘baiser sur mouches et toucher leur mains’ and necks to my great pleasure”
Too bad there wasn’t a #MeToo movement in Pepys’ time. 17th Century women could certainly have used it.
“It was dark before I could get home, and so land at Church-yard stairs, where, to my great trouble, I met a dead corps of the plague, in the narrow ally just bringing down a little pair of stairs. But I thank God I was not much disturbed at it.”
Good grief! He might have not been “disturbed” by it but I wonder of he stumbled over it or touched it! Even in those days they must have known that the plague was “catching” somehow.. Even if they didn’t know the process of contagion, they must have known that people came down with the plague after being close to someone else who had it or who was dead from it. They knew enough to go away from the city to try to avoid it. Sam seems very cavalier about it despite people dying of plague all around him every day. Well, we know he lived to age 70, so must have managed to avoid it, despite meeting “a dead corpse of the plague.”
“I first to see the bridegroom and bride, and found them both up, and he gone to dress himself. Both red in the face, and well enough pleased this morning with their night’s lodging.”
It’s easy to see why newlyweds have come to prefer going out of town for their wedding night. What cheek!
"...Lady Jem. must have something done to her body by Scott before she can be married..."
By the circumlocution I suspect Jem has an imperforate hymen requiring Scott, the surgeon, to perform an hymenotomy. We have no reason to suspect the neck straightening 5 years ago was not a success, and that whatever is now required is minor in that marriage not postponed.
————-
How would anyone know she had an imperforate hymen before she was married?
Yes, there are various meanings of "very poor" but Pepys used the phrase. He must have had something in mind. Perhaps Lawson left the widow with much more debt than assets.
"I hear this night that Sir J. Lawson was buried late last night at St. Dunstan’s by us, without any company at all, and that the condition of his family is but very poor, which I could be contented to be sorry for, though he never was the man that ever obliged me by word or deed." Which means he has no intention of parting with a penny of his 1450L to help the very poor family of a colleague. . Pepys can be tight sometimes.
Andrew Hamilton: “This puts me in the camp of those who are skeptical about claims that "the science is settled," and leaves me curious about alternative hypotheses and alternative uses of human resources.” What professional or amateur scientist worth his salt doesn’t take this position? Science is never settled. It deals in probabilities, not absolutes.
Comments
Second Reading
About Saturday 6 January 1665/66
Louise Hudson • Link
Linda F wrote
“The thought of Sam extracting the clove from one piece of sticky cake and hiding it in another reminds me that back then no one had the first notion of germs and how they operate.”
At the time when everything anyone came in contact must have been teeming with with bacteria, personal hygiene being unknown, I doubt the handling of a single clove would have made much difference.
I wanted to remind myself of the lyrics to Barbara Allen, so did an Internet search and found this:
.
“Looking for Barbara Allen? Get Cell Phone #, Address, Pics & more.”
Who knew?
I did find interesting history and other information at
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B…
About Thursday 4 January 1665/66
Louise Hudson • Link
Thanks, Colin, I think!
Barbers were tooth pullers then. They were called barber surgeons. No antiseptics, no anesthetics, probably little washing of hands.
About Thursday 4 January 1665/66
Louise Hudson • Link
Nt another word about poor Bess’s toothache. What did they do in those days for toothache? No modern dentistry.
About Saturday 23 December 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
Mweey Christmas ro you, too, SDS. We are well and dry and more important, unburnt. We made it through the latest fires unscathed, though some friends lost their houses.
About Saturday 23 December 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
Ralph Berry wrote, “I would like to try one of his fine venison pies”.
You can make one or have someone make it for you. Here’s one recipe, though it is probaby much better than anything Pepys ever had.
https://www.jamieoliver.com/recip…
There are many other recipes online, too.
About Thursday 21 December 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
Tg: And then the widow Burrows is made to submit but luckily proves to be "a most modest woman".
Apparently she didn’t let him get to where he wanted to go, so that made her a “most modest woman”.
LSL, you won’t get slammed. There are plenty of women who have common sense. Don’t equate us all with the lunatic fringe.
About Thursday 23 November 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
MarkS wrote: “The one mitigating factor for Pepys is that he never went further than "doing what I would with my hands about her". It seems he considered actual sex as going too far. There is no suggestion that she was unwilling, though of course that is no excuse, then or now.”
According to the encyclopedia here, she was “barely pre pubescent in the two years Pepys knew her”
Different times, yes, but still outrageous behavior. I wouldn’t call it a “mitigating” factor.
No idea why he refers to as her as “Mrs.” Her birth name was Tooker. If she’d been married she would have been known by her husband’s name.
About Thursday 23 November 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
Pepys may use “it” because girls and women were considered to be objects for men’s pleasure.
Australian Susan says, “It was ok to beat servants-just not too much.” Maybe it was ok to molest children, too-just not too much.
I doubt they had an age of consent in Pepys’ time. Consent was apparently unnecessary.
About Wednesday 18 October 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
“Up, and after some pleasant discourse with my wife (though my head full of business) I out and left her to go home, and myself to the office, and thence by water to the Duke of Albemarle’s, and so back again and find my wife gone.”
Did he ever find out where she was?
“. . . after eating something, to bed, my mind eased of a great deal of figures and castings.”
But no thought of Bess.
About Saturday 7 October 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
A. Hamilton: “Don Macahill's remark reminds me that I made a similar suggestion in a book on the defense budget circa 1972. It was called "Helpless Giant" and in the introduction, which I wrote but which was signed by Rep. Les Aspin D Wis., I suggested, as I recall, that members of Congress take down the photographs and models of new weapons systems on their office walls and replace them with pictures of the poor.”
Did they do it? (Rhetorical question)
About Monday 2 October 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
“and there going up I did upon the stairs overtake three pretty mayds or women and took them up with me, and I did ‘baiser sur mouches et toucher leur mains’ and necks to my great pleasure”
Too bad there wasn’t a #MeToo movement in Pepys’ time. 17th Century women could certainly have used it.
About Friday 8 September 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
Thanks, Sarah. I agree with your assessment.
About Friday 8 September 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
What’s up with the letter Sam “discusses” with his wife? Not even a comment on it!
About Tuesday 15 August 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
“It was dark before I could get home, and so land at Church-yard stairs, where, to my great trouble, I met a dead corps of the plague, in the narrow ally just bringing down a little pair of stairs. But I thank God I was not much disturbed at it.”
Good grief! He might have not been “disturbed” by it but I wonder of he stumbled over it or touched it! Even in those days they must have known that the plague was “catching” somehow.. Even if they didn’t know the process of contagion, they must have known that people came down with the plague after being close to someone else who had it or who was dead from it. They knew enough to go away from the city to try to avoid it. Sam seems very cavalier about it despite people dying of plague all around him every day. Well, we know he lived to age 70, so must have managed to avoid it, despite meeting “a dead corpse of the plague.”
About Wednesday 2 August 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
£1900 in 1665 would be worth approximately £200,000 today.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.u…
About Tuesday 1 August 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
“I first to see the bridegroom and bride, and found them both up, and he gone to dress himself. Both red in the face, and well enough pleased this morning with their night’s lodging.”
It’s easy to see why newlyweds have come to prefer going out of town for their wedding night. What cheek!
About Sunday 16 July 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
"...Lady Jem. must have something done to her body by Scott before she can be married..."
By the circumlocution I suspect Jem has an imperforate hymen requiring Scott, the surgeon, to perform an hymenotomy. We have no reason to suspect the neck straightening 5 years ago was not a success, and that whatever is now required is minor in that marriage not postponed.
————-
How would anyone know she had an imperforate hymen before she was married?
About Sunday 2 July 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
Yes, there are various meanings of "very poor" but Pepys used the phrase. He must have had something in mind. Perhaps Lawson left the widow with much more debt than assets.
About Sunday 2 July 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
"I hear this night that Sir J. Lawson was buried late last night at St. Dunstan’s by us, without any company at all, and that the condition of his family is but very poor, which I could be contented to be sorry for, though he never was the man that ever obliged me by word or deed." Which means he has no intention of parting with a penny of his 1450L to help the very poor family of a colleague. . Pepys can be tight sometimes.
About Thursday 29 June 1665
Louise Hudson • Link
Andrew Hamilton: “This puts me in the camp of those who are skeptical about claims that "the science is settled," and leaves me curious about alternative hypotheses and alternative uses of human resources.” What professional or amateur scientist worth his salt doesn’t take this position? Science is never settled. It deals in probabilities, not absolutes.