Not surprised Shasha never heard of scrod in the north of England. It's a Cape Cod area word. I grew up in New Jersey--not so far away--and I never heard the word until I was well into my adulthood. It isn't a term that's used very much in the States outside New England except in a few fancy restaurants. When I said I assumed you could get scrod in the North of England, I meant in the pluperfect subjunctive. ;)
Sept 11: "among others comes fair Mrs. Margarett Wight, who indeed is very pretty. So after supper home to prayers and to bed."
I wonder what he was praying for.
"This afternoon, it seems, Sir J. Minnes fell sicke at church, and going down the gallery stairs fell down dead, but came to himself again and is pretty well."
Nice trick.
Sept 7th
"where I find my wife hath had her head dressed by her woman, Mercer, which is to come to her to-morrow, but my wife being to go to a christening tomorrow, she came to do her head up to-night."
Put her hair in some kind of curlers, no doubt. I remember women setting their hair in "rags" when I was a kid. The hair was twisted and tied with a atrip of cloth. I wonder if that's what they did in Elizabeth's time.
I would guess the boy is about 12. That's the age boys in that era went to work or became apprentices to support themselves, learn a trade and sometimes help support their family.
Yes, Tonyel. Indeed you are speaking from a male perspective, and I from a female one. If every woman who married a ne'er do well was to be punished in this way, there would be no end to it. In addition, she and Sam started the affair before whe was married, so all bets are off.
Sarah, Sam's reluctance may have had to do with not wanting this obligation to employ her husband. I suppose he gets testy when a little tit for tat is requested. Blackmail? Sam never suggested blackmail. He only said Betty Lane, now Martin, wanted to speak to him and he suspected it was to ask him to find a position for her husband. No blackmail was implied by Sam. It looks to me as if Betty is simply asking for a favor from a lover. She may have not realized how much of a lowlife she was marrying. If he had a job he might improve and so might her life. You can't blame a girl for trying to improve her lot. Sam does bigger favors for men he knows with whom he isn't having dalliances.
Elizabeth might have been present through all this but it doesn't mean he couldn't say something out of her earshot. Unthank's was probably a noisy place.
Sarah, I don't think Elizabeth must necessarily have been there. Haven't you ever spoken of you and your husband or another person as "us" or "we" even if the other person wasn't present? It's mean of Sam to refuse to find a job for Mr. Lane, seeing as how he's had his way with his wife. It seems to be the least he could do for her. The encyclopedia says they continued their affair long after Mr and Mrs. Lane were married. Sam expects sexual favors for nothing if he won't find even find a lowly position for her husband. What a self-centered cheapskate!
Sasha, interesting that cake oop North is fruitcake. That's new to me.
The drunken cherry chocolate cake you made sounds divine.
The pluperfect subjunctive joke was one I'd heard some years ago. I love jokes about grammar and accents. May I assume one can get "scrod" in the north of England?
In Pepys' time "cake" would have been fruitcake rather than what we all think of as the usual cake today, a light, sweet and soft concoction. I wonder who the Moorcocke who sent it was. In any case, Pepys liked the cake, saying it was "very good."
I wondered what a boy would do when "attending" Sam to church. Thanks to Cum Grano Salis and Jeannette, I have a better idea. As for Rome being the Antichrist, I wouldn't touch that one with a 10-foot pole.
I agree, Sasha, much of it doesn't make sense, and for the most part, we have only Sam's diary entries and his view of things to go by. In addition, what the royalty and the aristocracy did, then as now, had little effect on the common people--though more then than now. Many saw royalty and the aristocracy as near gods in Sam's time.
"Illegitimate" children in Sam's time were seen as a "curse", to be avoided at all costs--a child bound to become a criminal, no matter how well he might be treated. Sam's horrific attitude (by today's standards) was probably more related to the illegtimacy than his paternity. It wouldn't have mattered whether it was Tom's child and related to Sam or not. The only consideration was that the child was a cursed child who would surely become a cursed adult. (It isn't clear to me whether this child was a boy or a girl. Does anyone know?) Fortunately we have become more enlightened about children born out of wedlock today--and children in general. Children are no longer considered "cursed" by rational people and there are many eager to adopt them and treat them as their own, no matter their origins. Elizabeth, despite her desire for a child probably would also have seen child as a "curse," as most people in her time and class would have done. As sad and disturbing it is to us today, it's part of the ugly history of Western man that we must learn to accept as true.
I'd give Sam a break on his furniture buying habits. More than once I have gone shopping and found an item or two I would like to buy, but said to myself, "Wait, you'd better go back and measure the space to be sure." Seeing a piece of furniture and assuming it would fit is bad practice, even in this day of easier deliveries and returns. It would wind up being one more annoying thing to have to deal with, so why take chances? (I can also relate to the comments about buying and transporting unassembled furniture in flatpacks. I wonder what Sam would have thought about that!)
S.D. Sarah, thanks for the explanation. You are probably right. We shall have to wait for further developments, if any. [I'm your neighhbor to the north in L.A. County.]
Ok, thanks to Terry Foreman, I know what a lodestone is but it doesn't help me understand what Pepys is talking about in the passage:
"and Mr. Reeve came and brought an anchor and a very fair loadstone. He would have had me bought it, and a good stone it is, but when he saw that I would not buy it he said he [would] leave it for me to sell for him. By and by he comes to tell me that he had present occasion for 6l. to make up a sum, and that he would pay me in a day or two. . ."
I've read it multiple times and it looks to me as if Pepys is saying Mr. Reeve brought Pepys an anchor and a lodestone and wants Pepys to buy the stone (No word about the anchor). Pepys refuses to buy it so Reeve says he would leave it there for Pepys to sell (for Reeve on consignment, presumably) . No word on whether Pepys said he would allow this. Then Mr Reeve comes back with 6L (for what?) and says he will pay Pepys in a day or two. (For what?) Then Pepys writes, "but I had the unusual wit to deny him, and so by and by we parted". What did Pepys deny Reeve? And what was the money supposed to be for? Did Reeve take the anchor and/or the lodestone away with him?
It is used in the states, Sasha, and that's the first thing I thought of when Pepys wrote, "let her brew as she has baked." Naturally, it was women who "got themselves pregnant."
By clicking on the word "Nursery" in the diary for today, you will see this
New Nursery A theatre for training young actors, this one was based at the theatre on Vere Street which had been the headquarters of the King's Company from 1660-1663.
Posters questioned the word in 2007, but it's available as a link now.
Yessiree, Sam. You're wealthy because of your own hard work and because God favors you, and everyone who is not wealthy or unable to afford the necessities of life is either out of God's favor or lazy, or both. A simple and convenient philosophy, still with us 500+ years on.
Comments
Second Reading
About Thursday 1 September 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
Not surprised Shasha never heard of scrod in the north of England. It's a Cape Cod area word. I grew up in New Jersey--not so far away--and I never heard the word until I was well into my adulthood. It isn't a term that's used very much in the States outside New England except in a few fancy restaurants. When I said I assumed you could get scrod in the North of England, I meant in the pluperfect subjunctive. ;)
About Wednesday 7 September 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
Sept 11:
"among others comes fair Mrs. Margarett Wight, who indeed is very pretty. So after supper home to prayers and to bed."
I wonder what he was praying for.
"This afternoon, it seems, Sir J. Minnes fell sicke at church, and going down the gallery stairs fell down dead, but came to himself again and is pretty well."
Nice trick.
Sept 7th
"where I find my wife hath had her head dressed by her woman, Mercer, which is to come to her to-morrow, but my wife being to go to a christening tomorrow, she came to do her head up to-night."
Put her hair in some kind of curlers, no doubt. I remember women setting their hair in "rags" when I was a kid. The hair was twisted and tied with a atrip of cloth. I wonder if that's what they did in Elizabeth's time.
About Friday 9 September 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
I would guess the boy is about 12. That's the age boys in that era went to work or became apprentices to support themselves, learn a trade and sometimes help support their family.
About Thursday 8 September 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
SD Sarah: Weird Pepys makes such a point of it being MRS. Milles' child, and does not mention the Rev.'s participation in the occasion.
Babies were always their mother's child until they were old enough to be interesting and were housebroken.
About Monday 5 September 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
Yes, Tonyel. Indeed you are speaking from a male perspective, and I from a female one. If every woman who married a ne'er do well was to be punished in this way, there would be no end to it. In addition, she and Sam started the affair before whe was married, so all bets are off.
Sarah, Sam's reluctance may have had to do with not wanting this obligation to employ her husband. I suppose he gets testy when a little tit for tat is requested. Blackmail? Sam never suggested blackmail. He only said Betty Lane, now Martin, wanted to speak to him and he suspected it was to ask him to find a position for her husband. No blackmail was implied by Sam. It looks to me as if Betty is simply asking for a favor from a lover. She may have not realized how much of a lowlife she was marrying. If he had a job he might improve and so might her life. You can't blame a girl for trying to improve her lot. Sam does bigger favors for men he knows with whom he isn't having dalliances.
Elizabeth might have been present through all this but it doesn't mean he couldn't say something out of her earshot. Unthank's was probably a noisy place.
About Monday 5 September 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
Sarah, I don't think Elizabeth must necessarily have been there. Haven't you ever spoken of you and your husband or another person as "us" or "we" even if the other person wasn't present? It's mean of Sam to refuse to find a job for Mr. Lane, seeing as how he's had his way with his wife. It seems to be the least he could do for her. The encyclopedia says they continued their affair long after Mr and Mrs. Lane were married. Sam expects sexual favors for nothing if he won't find even find a lowly position for her husband. What a self-centered cheapskate!
About Thursday 1 September 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
Sasha, interesting that cake oop North is fruitcake. That's new to me.
The drunken cherry chocolate cake you made sounds divine.
The pluperfect subjunctive joke was one I'd heard some years ago. I love jokes about grammar and accents. May I assume one can get "scrod" in the north of England?
About Thursday 1 September 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
In Pepys' time "cake" would have been fruitcake rather than what we all think of as the usual cake today, a light, sweet and soft concoction. I wonder who the Moorcocke who sent it was. In any case, Pepys liked the cake, saying it was "very good."
About Tuesday 30 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
Todd Bernhardt wrote: I'd love to find out what exactly Sam means by Penn's "vanity of the French garbe and affected manner of speech and gait."
I suspect Sam thought Penn was a fop, putting on airs.
About Sunday 28 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
I'm afraid you're right SDS. It's a wonder Sam could sleep so well during sermons with all that racket.
About Sunday 28 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
I wondered what a boy would do when "attending" Sam to church. Thanks to Cum Grano Salis and Jeannette, I have a better idea. As for Rome being the Antichrist, I wouldn't touch that one with a 10-foot pole.
About Thursday 25 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
I agree, Sasha, much of it doesn't make sense, and for the most part, we have only Sam's diary entries and his view of things to go by. In addition, what the royalty and the aristocracy did, then as now, had little effect on the common people--though more then than now. Many saw royalty and the aristocracy as near gods in Sam's time.
About Thursday 25 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
"Illegitimate" children in Sam's time were seen as a "curse", to be avoided at all costs--a child bound to become a criminal, no matter how well he might be treated. Sam's horrific attitude (by today's standards) was probably more related to the illegtimacy than his paternity. It wouldn't have mattered whether it was Tom's child and related to Sam or not. The only consideration was that the child was a cursed child who would surely become a cursed adult. (It isn't clear to me whether this child was a boy or a girl. Does anyone know?) Fortunately we have become more enlightened about children born out of wedlock today--and children in general. Children are no longer considered "cursed" by rational people and there are many eager to adopt them and treat them as their own, no matter their origins. Elizabeth, despite her desire for a child probably would also have seen child as a "curse," as most people in her time and class would have done. As sad and disturbing it is to us today, it's part of the ugly history of Western man that we must learn to accept as true.
About Wednesday 24 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
I'd give Sam a break on his furniture buying habits. More than once I have gone shopping and found an item or two I would like to buy, but said to myself, "Wait, you'd better go back and measure the space to be sure." Seeing a piece of furniture and assuming it would fit is bad practice, even in this day of easier deliveries and returns. It would wind up being one more annoying thing to have to deal with, so why take chances? (I can also relate to the comments about buying and transporting unassembled furniture in flatpacks. I wonder what Sam would have thought about that!)
About Thursday 18 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
That would be lovely, Sarah.
About Thursday 18 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
S.D. Sarah, thanks for the explanation. You are probably right. We shall have to wait for further developments, if any. [I'm your neighhbor to the north in L.A. County.]
About Thursday 18 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
Ok, thanks to Terry Foreman, I know what a lodestone is but it doesn't help me understand what Pepys is talking about in the passage:
"and Mr. Reeve came and brought an anchor and a very fair loadstone. He would have had me bought it, and a good stone it is, but when he saw that I would not buy it he said he [would] leave it for me to sell for him. By and by he comes to tell me that he had present occasion for 6l. to make up a sum, and that he would pay me in a day or two. . ."
I've read it multiple times and it looks to me as if Pepys is saying Mr. Reeve brought Pepys an anchor and a lodestone and wants Pepys to buy the stone (No word about the anchor). Pepys refuses to buy it so Reeve says he would leave it there for Pepys to sell (for Reeve on consignment, presumably) . No word on whether Pepys said he would allow this. Then Mr Reeve comes back with 6L (for what?) and says he will pay Pepys in a day or two. (For what?) Then Pepys writes, "but I had the unusual wit to deny him, and so by and by we parted". What did Pepys deny Reeve? And what was the money supposed to be for? Did Reeve take the anchor and/or the lodestone away with him?
About Monday 15 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
It is used in the states, Sasha, and that's the first thing I thought of when Pepys wrote, "let her brew as she has baked." Naturally, it was women who "got themselves pregnant."
About Tuesday 2 August 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
By clicking on the word "Nursery" in the diary for today, you will see this
New Nursery
A theatre for training young actors, this one was based at the theatre on Vere Street which had been the headquarters of the King's Company from 1660-1663.
Posters questioned the word in 2007, but it's available as a link now.
About Sunday 31 July 1664
Louise Hudson • Link
Yessiree, Sam. You're wealthy because of your own hard work and because God favors you, and everyone who is not wealthy or unable to afford the necessities of life is either out of God's favor or lazy, or both. A simple and convenient philosophy, still with us 500+ years on.