Thursday 21 April 1664

Up pretty betimes and to my office, and thither came by and by Mr. Vernaty and staid two hours with me, but Mr. Gauden did not come, and so he went away to meet again anon. Then comes Mr. Creed, and, after some discourse, he and I and my wife by coach to Westminster (leaving her at Unthanke’s, her tailor’s) Hall, and there at the Lords’ House heard that it is ordered, that, upon submission upon the knee both to the House and my Lady Peters, W. Joyce shall be released. I forthwith made him submit, and aske pardon upon his knees; which he did before several Lords. But my Lady would not hear it; but swore she would post the Lords, that the world might know what pitifull Lords the King hath; and that revenge was sweeter to her than milk; and that she would never be satisfied unless he stood in a pillory, and demand pardon there. But I perceive the Lords are ashamed of her, and so I away calling with my wife at a place or two to inquire after a couple of mayds recommended to us, but we found both of them bad. So set my wife at my uncle Wight’s and I home, and presently to the ‘Change, where I did some business, and thence to my uncle’s and there dined very well, and so to the office, we sat all the afternoon, but no sooner sat but news comes my Lady Sandwich was come to see us, so I went out, and running up (her friend however before me) I perceive by my dear Lady blushing that in my dining-room she was doing something upon the pott, which I also was ashamed of, and so fell to some discourse, but without pleasure through very pity to my Lady. She tells me, and I find true since, that the House this day have voted that the King be desired to demand right for the wrong done us by the Dutch, and that they will stand by him with their lives fortunes: which is a very high vote, and more than I expected. What the issue will be, God knows! My Lady, my wife not being at home, did not stay, but, poor, good woman, went away, I being mightily taken with her dear visitt, and so to the office, where all the afternoon till late, and so to my office, and then to supper and to bed, thinking to rise betimes tomorrow.

23 Annotations

Terry F   Link to this

"at the Lords' House heard that it is ordered, that, upon submission upon the knee both to the House and my Lady Peters, W. Joyce shall be released."

Lady Petre versus Joyce and Walker, for arresting her.

Upon Report made by the Earl of Petriburgh, from the Committee of Privileges, "That, according to the Order of this House, referring to their Considerations the Petitions of the Lady Elizabeth Petre and William Joyce, the Committee have called all Persons complained of before them; and, upon Examination, do find that William Joyce hath acknowledged the Fact of his causing the Lady Petre to be arrested, contrary to the Privilege due to the Peerage; as also his hearty Sorrow for offending the House of Peers, in breaking the Privilege due to the Peerage; whereupon the Committee, considering of his said Submission to them, and that he hath suffered for some Time by Restraint, are of Opinion, That he should (upon receiving the Reprehension of the House) be discharged, being enjoined likewise to make a Submission to the Lady Petre."

His Lordship further reported, "That James Walker the Bailiff (who, with his Servants and Followers, made the Arrest) acknowledgeth the Fact; and faith, he had a Warrant from the Marshal's Court, but produced it not; concerning whom the Committee are of Opinion, That he should be taken into Custody, till the Pleasure of the House be further signified."

Then the said Joyce was brought to the Bar; who kneeling, the Speaker told him, in the Name of the House, "That the Lords have considered of his great and transcendent Offence, in arresting the Lady Petre, contrary to the Privilege due to the Peerage, she being a Peeress of this Realm, for which he deserves to be severely punished: But their Lordships, considering of his humble Submission and Acknowledgement of his said great Offence, are willing to shew Mercy towards him for this Time, expecting it will be a Warning to him not to commit the like Offence for the future. And he was also enjoined to make his humble Submission to the Lady Petre."

The said Joyce gave their Lordships humble Thanks; and declared his hearty Sorrow for his great Offence, in arresting the Lady Petre, contrary to the Privilege due to the Peerage of this Kingdom.

Joyce released, and Walker to be attached.

Upon this, it is ORDERED, That the said William Joyce shall make his humble Submission to the Lady Petre, for his Offence against her; and so doing, is hereby discharged of his present Restraint; and this to be a sufficient Warrant in that Behalf.
It is further ORDERED, That the Serjeant at Arms attending this House, or his Deputy, shall attach the Body of James Walker, Bailiff, for arresting the Lady Petre, Wife of the Lord Petre, a Peeress of this Realm, contrary to the Privilege of Peerage, and keep him in safe Custody until the Pleasure of this House be further signified.

Report concerning the Common Sewer near the Parliament Office.

From: 'House of Lords Journal Volume 11: 21 April 1664', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 11: 1660-1666, pp. 597-98. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com... Date accessed: 21 April 2007.

Terry F   Link to this

"the House [of Commons] this day have voted that the King be desired to
demand right for the wrong done us by the Dutch, and that they will stand
by him with their lives [and] fortunes."

Vote against Holland.

Resolved, &c. Nemine Contradicente, That the several and respective Wrongs, Dishonours, and Indignities, done to his Majesty by the Subjects of the United Provinces, by invading of his Rights in India, Africa, and elsewhere; and the Damages, Affronts, and Injuries, done by them to our Merchants; be reported to the House, as the greatest Obstruction of our Foreign Trade: And that it is the Opinion of the Committee, That the said respective Dishonours, Indignities, and Grievances, be humbly and speedily presented to his Majesty: And that he be most humbly moved to take some speedy and effectual Course for the Redress thereof, and all other of the like Nature; and for the Prevention of the like in future.

The Question being put, To agree in Opinion with the Committee.
It was resolved in the Affirmative, Nemine Contradicente.
Resolved, &c. That these Words, viz. "and, in Prosecution thereof, this House doth resolve they will, with their Lives and Fortunes, assist his Majesty against all Opposition whatsoever," be added to the former Vote.

Resolved, &c. That the Wrongs, Dishonours, and Indignities, done to his Majesty by the Subjects of the United Provinces, by invading of his Rights in India, Africa, and elsewhere; and the Damages, Affronts, and Injuries, done by them to our Merchants; are the greatest Obstruction of our Foreign Trade: And that the same be humbly and speedily presented to his Majesty: And that he be most humbly moved to take some speedy and effectual Course for Redress thereof, and all other of the like Nature; and for the Prevention of the like in future: And, in Prosecution thereof, they will, with their Lives and Fortunes, assist his Majesty against all Oppositions whatsoever.

Conference desired with Lords.

Resolved, &c. That the Concurrence of the Lords be desired to this Vote: And that a Conference be desired with their Lordships, in order thereunto: And that Mr. Clifford do go up to the Lords to desire the Conference.

Ordered, That Mr. Clifford, Mr. Waller, Mr. Henry Coventry, Mr. Solicitor General, Sir Edward Walpoole, Sir Thomas Meres, and Sir Winston Churchill, be appointed to manage the Conference with the Lords.

From: 'House of Commons Journal Volume 8: 21 April 1664', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 8: 1660-1667 (1802), pp. 547-48. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com... Date accessed: 21 April 2007.

Todd Bernhardt   Link to this

"I perceive by my dear Lady blushing that in my dining-room she was doing something upon the pott, which I also was ashamed of, and so fell to some discourse, but without pleasure through very pity to my Lady"

How awkward for both of them! I guess Sam's house didn't have a separate "house of office" for guests...?

Andrew Hamilton   Link to this

...Sir Edward Walpoole, ... and Sir Winston Churchill, be appointed to manage the Conference with the Lords.

Thanks to Terry for the Parliamentary reports on the matter of Joyce & Lady Peters, and the matter of the Dutch challenge. Interesting to see this early appearance of two names later famous in British history.

Michael Robinson   Link to this

"... with their Lives and Fortunes, assist his Majesty ..."

Perhaps "our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor" is an echo of this, see the conclusion to:-
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/c...

A case of rhetorical inflation? Or, one wonders, were the Commons sufficiently realistic to accept no group of politicians had honor to pledge; Guy Fawkes in 1605 is said to be the only man to ever enter parliament with 'honorable intentions.'

Australian Susan   Link to this

Todd - The House of Office was for "number twos" and for a mere widdle, a chamber pot (thus the name - pot for use in a chamber) sufficed. For ladies at that time, it was comparatively easy and discreet to use a pot as they had volumnious skirts and no knickers so you could easily accomodate your needs.

Am I the only one old enough here to have actually used a chamber pot? I always had one under my bed as a child - a sturdy while earthernware object with a handle like a big mug on the side.

I am not sure if this was happening in our period - rather think not - but when it became the custom for gentelmen to be left to their drink whilst the ladies withdrew to the withdrawing room (thus the name), it also became the custom for a chamber pot to be secreted in a cupboard in a sideboard in the dining room, so gentlemen could relive themselves when rather too drink taken to get outside.

Australian Susan   Link to this

"..and so to the office, where all the afternoon till late, and so to my office,"

Does this mean, Sam spent time in the general office, then retired to his private office for a while or is it a fault in transcription somewhere?

Mary   Link to this

"and so to the office ..... to my office...."

L&M give the same transcription, but they add an editorial semi-colon after 'late'. This has the effect of making the last part of the sentence sound like a simple summary of the afternoon's doings.

JWB   Link to this

"Am I the only one old enough here to have actually used a chamber pot?"

No.

Reading Margaret MacMillan's "Nixon & Mao" this weekend and came across this tidbit more or less same genre: "He(Mao)never really got accustomed to indoor lavatories. When he moved into the Zhongnanhai (Peking compound) after 1949, an orderly followed him around the grounds with a shovel..."

Terry F   Link to this

"I away...with my wife...to inquire after a couple of mayds recommended to us"

Cook-maids, presumably, if Besse is now on her way to being chambermaid/companion to Elizabeth full-time?

---
Until their adult children built them an indoor bathroom with commode, my grandparents who lived on a farm had chamber-pots in the bedrooms and the chamber of office a separate wooden structure outside -- a 2-holer, more luxurious than this one: http://www.bigrockcabin.com/BigRockPhotoGallery...

jeannine   Link to this

Well lucky for "My Lady" that her toileting experience is only captured by a verbal description by Sam. Someone named George wasn't quite so lucky.....!

http://www.museumofbadart.org/collection/portra...

cumsalisgrano   Link to this

Do not forget the Poor, only those with spare cash had a chamber pot, [ plus potty training], and the wealthy a cammode that could be a wonderful piece of furnishing. Thus that expression " not a pot to P*** in".

In the early 60's, Rome Main Station had a glorious set up, all beautiful stone/tiled and clean and open with little posts to rest non existent paper and wonderful moulded holes in the floor.
Her Ladyship could mot be seen using the cannel [gutter] or a bush, or even the local park.
Somewhere in the mid 20th century Pregnant women were still using the bushes, when desperate.

As most of the readers, be of the upper middling sort, they be unaware that many of the schools and pubs use to have the male pass water on the local wall that have a small trench for dissipation of product.

The Last few decades have seen vast improvements in Hygiene and sanitary standards.

Paul Chapin   Link to this

Michael Robinson, re "our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor": we had a brief discussion of this point in the annotations to the entry for 1 April 1664. See http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1664/04/01/#ann...

Patricia   Link to this

Poor Lady Sandwich! I have that recurring dream, sitting on the pot in a public place and hoping nobody notices....

In rural Ontario, in the 1950s, only about half the families in our community had indoor plumbing. The school had chemical toilets, which are actually pit privies, but at least they were indoors. We had an outhouse for daytime use; in winter there were chamberpots for nighttime use, though strangely I have no memory of ever using one. On summer nights, we peed on the lawn. (I was afraid of the phantoms that lurked in the darkness near the outhouse.) My mom would often go outside with me before I went up to bed, for a sort of communal pee. My grandad used the back wall of the woodshed in summer; the gutters of the stable were also used by the men of the family. All this seemed perfectly natural to us. We didn't get indoor plumbing until about 1964.
I still have no hesitation or reservations about going in the bush when we're hiking or camping, but I had to actually teach my daughters how to pee in the bush: it didn't come naturally to them. And sometimes you gotta go, you know?

Michael Robinson   Link to this

brief discussion of "our lives, our fortunes, ..."

Paul Chapin, thanks; the memory of the content of your prior post must have been why I made the association. Apologies for my inadvertent failure to make the acknowledgment.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"...upon submission upon the knee both to the House and my Lady Peters, W. Joyce shall be released."

And still the thief is not satisfied...But at least as Sam reports the Lords are ashamed of her behavior. Contrast with Jemina and her good heart.

Cactus Wren   Link to this

Liza Picard, in her wonderfully entertaining book _Restoration London_, calls the scene with Lady Sandwich a "demonstration of the flexible use of rooms" in this period. She says it "reads like a nightmare" (but whose? Sam's or my Lady's?), and comments:

"Poor Lady Sandwich. Why had the servants not ushered her into a bed chamber with a comfortable close-stool -- or even a "pott" -- which she could have used in private? Why the dining room? And how does one conduct a conversation with a young man, even a remotely connected family friend, in such circumstances?"

jeannine   Link to this

"demonstration of the flexible use of rooms"
Cactus, It somewhat reminds me of 'potty' training a child. We had a little toddler size toilet that we'd put down in the house in whatever room we may be for awhile (ie. sitting reading in one room, cleaning in another room, etc.). Although it's adorable to converse with a little kid as they learn to do their business, something is lost in the translation when applied to having an adult conversation! There are so many things that are so cute in children but not so cute in the adult world...alas... poor Lady Sandwich and poor Sam.

language hat   Link to this

So why didn't Sam just say "Oh, excuse me" and retire for a polite interval, returning when she'd finished?

JonTom Kittredge   Link to this

"Why didn't Sam just say "Oh, excuse me" and retire"
An interesting question. I guess he felt that retreating would draw attention to an embarassing situation, and that it would be more tactful for them both to pretend away what they were both well aware of. I that the pot was well concealed by her skirts. Maybe it was in a close stool, so that she wouldn't be squatting? Even so it would still have been obvious why she was sitting there in the middle of the room.

Charlene   Link to this

Chamber pots (or the equivalent) are still used in communities in Northern Canada where there's no sewer service and the soil doesn't lend itself to septic tanks. A lot of towns don't have sewers because they're in an area of discontinuous permafrost, and the frost heaves would destroy the pipes every winter.

In those places, you have chamber pots for under your bed and a "honeypot" that you put out every day for pickup containing the waste. In the old days people used lidded gallon-sized ice cream pails. The truck that comes by every day to pick them up is the "honey wagon".

Australian Susan   Link to this

In Australia it was the dunnyman who collected the full dunny and left an empty one behind. Clive James in his Unreliable Memoirs has a wonderul description of the time he left a toy outside their house and the dunnyman tripped over it.........

PeterM   Link to this

Coming in late on this one but in Austrailia, the dunny man was also calledn the s**t carter who would remove the full pail and carry on his head; hence the saying "as flat as a s**t carters hat."

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