Tuesday 16 June 1663

Up, but not so early as I intend now, and to my office, where doing business all the morning. At noon by desire I dined with Sir W. Batten, who tells me that the House have voted the supply, intended for the King, shall be by subsidy. After dinner with Sir J. Minnes to see some pictures at Brewer’s, said to be of good hands, but I do not like them. So I to the office and thence to Stacy’s, his Tar merchant,. whose servant with whom I agreed yesterday for some tar do by combination with Bowyer and Hill fall from our agreement, which vexes us all at the office, even Sir W. Batten, who was so earnest for it. So to the office, where we sat all the afternoon till night, and then to Sir W. Pen, who continues ill, and so to bed about 10 o’clock.

11 Annotations

TerryF   Link to this

"Sir W. Batten...tells me that the House have voted the supply, intended for the King, shall be by subsidy."
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Supply.

The House did then resume the Matter touching his Majesty's present Supply.

[...]

Sir Robert Atkins reports from the said Committee, the Opinion of the Committee, That the present Supply to his Majesty shall be levied by Way of Subsidy; and that the House would name a Committee, to search and examine the Rolls in the Exchequer, of Subsidies granted in the Times of Queen Elizabeth, King James, and the late King Charles; and to report to the House, What the Proportions of the several Counties were upon those Rolls: And that the Committee be impowered to send for Persons, Papers, and Records.

Resolved, That this House agree with the Committee, That the present Supply to his Majesty shall be levied by way of Subsidy.

From: 'House of Commons Journal Volume 8: 16 June 1663', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 8: 1660-1667 (1802), p. 503. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?com.... Date accessed: 16 June 2006

Robert Gertz   Link to this

"After dinner with Sir J. Minnes to see some pictures at Brewer’s, said to be of good hands, but I do not like them."

"of good hands" meaning by several individuals rated by some as good artists? If so, Capt Brewer may have assembled a collection of paintings by fellow seamen/amateur artists.

Australian Susan   Link to this

The news about the subsidy business in Parliament spread very quickly, didn't it? These days, we take it for granted (I could listen to Parliament live on my radio all the time it sits if I wished)that we can get up to the minute news, but I think this evidence in the Diary shows the remarkably speedy dissemination of what was going on and all before Mr Hansard had begun his work. See http://www.hansard-westminster.co.uk/story.asp

TerryF   Link to this

"The news about the subsidy business in Parliament" has come PDQ from a man who, since 1661, has been M.P. for Rochester, and sat in Commons earlier in the morning.

dirk   Link to this

Tar

Yesterday:
"to Thames Street and strike up a bargain for some tarr, to prevent being abused therein by Hill, who was with me this morning, and is mightily surprised that I should tell him what I can have the same tarr with his for"

Today:
"to Stacy’s, his Tar merchant,. whose servant with whom I agreed yesterday for some tar do by combination with Bowyer and Hill fall from our agreement"

That sounds like a cartel agreement among the tar suppliers, possibly Hill's initiative. I suppose he (Hill) had a quiet talk with his main competitors, to prevent pressure on prices by the Navy Board [i.e. Sam]. --- Either that, or the servant with whom Sam made an agreement yesterday had no authority to do so...

TerryF   Link to this

Tar

Last Saturday
“Up and among the tarr men, to look the price of tarr” then, evidence in hand as to what is charged on theopen market, “a difference with Sir W. Batten about Mr. Bowyer’s tarr…, for I will not have the King abused so abominably in the price of what we buy, by Sir W. Batten’s corruption and underhand dealing.”

It seems that perhaps Hill was used to leverage a deal that fell through for either reason you suppose, Dirk.

Tar is thicker than blood.

Robert Gertz   Link to this

Sounds like the Organization of Tar Equipping Companies (OTEC) has met since yesterday to take collective action against Sam's efforts.

"Gentlemen, I have outline the threat facing us. The representative from Jersey wishes to speak. You have the floor, Guido." Hill nods.

"Yeah, thanks. Fellow members, dis man Peeps is a problem. In Jersey, my friends...We take care of problems. It's the Jersey way."

So much so that we'll soon need a colony of "New" Jersey just ta hold the bodies, he jokes to his companions as he sits.

***

John M   Link to this

"Levied by way of subsidy"

What does this mean? How are Parliament raising the money? by indirect taxation of some sort?

A. Hamilton   Link to this

That the present Supply to his Majesty shall be levied by Way of Subsidy

From Terry's selection from the House of Commons Journal, it would appear that the costs of the King will be levied as a special additional tax (called a subsidy -- see OED def. below) probably on land and movables and apportioned among the counties according to precedent. Not a good way to make the king beloved of his subjects, and probably a sign of rising friction between Crown and Commons.

From OED:

subsidy, n.
....
2. Eng. Hist. A pecuniary aid granted by parliament to the sovereign to meet special needs.
In the 14th and 15th centuries the term (occurring, in the AF. form subside, in 1340 Rolls Parlt. II. 112/2, 117/1, 1353 27 Edw. III stat. i. c. 4, 1382 5 Rich. II stat. ii. c. 3) was applied mainly to the taxes on cloth, wool, leather, and skins, and the duties of tonnage and poundage. In Tudor times it was applied pre-eminently to a tax of 4s. in the pound on lands and 2s. 8d. in the pound on movables. Its application to tonnage and poundage was continued in acts of parliament until 1707 Act 6 Anne c. 48. In 1698 an increased percentage of duty charged upon certain articles was known as the New Subsidy.
The term has been extended by legal and historical writers to the aids derived from the tenth, the fifteenth, and other sources. The old lawyers, e.g. Coke, term the duties on wool, skins, and leather, ‘perpetual’ subsidies, the others being classed as ‘temporary’.
†book of subsidy = subsidy-book (see 4).

Patricia   Link to this

Price fixing in the 17th Century.

aqua   Link to this

Patricia: Everything was rigged that could be nailed down. Monopolies galore, the only competive pricing would be by the Nell Gwin society, and if some charged less for tasting her Oranges, ye be in one of the seven nicks very quickly. The King issued Warrants, Charters, Pattens, and other Papers to control all commerce, fortunately the Merchants did find ways of let their friends have it at cost. Only at the flee market could you have fresh fleas free, Each of the Markets were under the control of one [land]Lord whom received the signetted paper for a cut of the action, to keep the royals in pleasures.
Pepys was one of the few who sore [saw] the situation in a differing light, a little give and take, helped England become the commerce center, by allowing others to share in the greed.
as a mis-quote of Sir Bacon, ' Money like muck when piled up blows up and then there be none.
In other words when the 90% of the monies be cornered by 1% of the group then thee get a revolution led by one of the disenfrancised of the top 10 %.
The number of Craftsmen/artisians/Tradesmen were limited to quantity and location.
You could not decide to be a What ever, without having the correct [Freedom to work as thy own Master] papers. You had to seek a trade, from age of 12 thru 20, for those that did not have visuable means of Papa support, otherwise marry a rich 'wider' woman.
One of the reasons there be so many pop and son and grandson concerns. More people available than positions to suit, 'tis why Yanky land and other far off spots became popular for many of the industrious, wars help to make the pyramid of survival be popular for growing into a wealthy position.

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