Tuesday 13 August 1661
To the Privy Seal in the morning, then to the Wardrobe to dinner, where I met my wife, and found my young Lord very ill. So my Lady intends to send her other three sons, Sidney, Oliver, and John, to my house, for fear of the small-pox. After dinner I went to my father’s, where I found him within, and went up to him, and there found him settling his papers against his removal, and I took some old papers of difference between me and my wife and took them away. After that Pall being there I spoke to my father about my intention not to keep her longer for such and such reasons, which troubled him and me also, and had like to have come to some high words between my mother and me, who is become a very simple woman.
By and by comes in Mrs. Cordery to take her leave of my father, thinking he was to go presently into the country, and will have us to come and see her before he do go.
Then my father and I went forth to Mr. Rawlinson’s, where afterwards comes my uncle Thomas and his two sons, and then my uncle Wight by appointment of us all, and there we read the will and told them how things are, and what our thoughts are of kindness to my uncle Thomas if he do carry himself peaceable, but otherwise if he persist to keep his caveat up against us. So he promised to withdraw it, and seemed to be very well contented with things as they are.
After a while drinking, we paid all and parted, and so I home, and there found my Lady’s three sons come, of which I am glad that I am in condition to do her and my Lord any service in this kind, but my mind is yet very much troubled about my Lord of Sandwich’s health, which I am afeard of.
34 Annotations
First Reading
A. De Araujo • Link
"who is become a very simple woman"
Give him Hell Mother Pepys; he is treating your daughter,his sister,like thrash!
Glyn • Link
How long has Pall been living with them? - do we think she realised she was on a trial period? And is this the reason why Elizabeth is taking on a new maid?
dirk • Link
Pall
"How long has Pall been living with them?" - It was agreed on monday 12 November 1660 that Pall should come to live at Sam's place, as a servant. She finally came on wednesday 2 January 1660/61.
Nix • Link
"some old papers of difference between me and my wife" --
I'm puzzled by this one. The obvious meaning would be papers relating to a dispute, but I don't recall seeing anything about a formal, documented conflict between Samuel and Elizabeth, and even if there were, why would Papa Pepys would have the papers?
OED offers a definition of "difference" as an adjective equivalent to "deferent", which in turn can mean "Showing deference, deferential." Perhaps there is some document relating to the marriage, establishing or recognizing the Pepyses' social standing to be superior to that of her family?
Does anyone else have an idea? Anything in L&M?
JWB • Link
Differences
Married in'55 when she 14. He with his stone(operation '58), she with he cysts, they were childless living in one room turret at Montagu's Whitehall residence. She walked out on him. Tomalin writes likely she returned to her parents, the St Michaels, and later lived with her friends the Palmers, he a lawyer seems to have represented her in the Pepys "differences" & urged reconcilliation.
dirk • Link
"difference between me and my wife" - re Nix
All this took place before the start of the present diary, which is why we can only guess what actually happened.
vicente • Link
"...After that Pall being there I spoke to my father about my intention not to keep her longer for such and such reasons, which troubled him and me also, and had like to have come to some high words between my mother and me, who is become a very simple woman..." Sam finds the situation too problematic, to even try to think and release his thoughts to his diary[ alter ego ], the feelings about Pall, would be a great topic for Freudians amongst us.
Re : Mam Ma : the put down, does not agree with smart son. 'Tis tough greying out. The animals are kinder, take the sick into the deep woods and forget her.
vicente • Link
from ignoramus:- defer: vt Latin [ put off]Differo [irreg] to show deference to, cedo:
deference: observantia.
differ: discrepo or differo:... difference of opinion: discrepantia
Modern Dict:: Defer: defferer.[ ME defferen , differen]
deference - respect. : Deferent serving or carry out:
Different not the same...differ: pospone
many off shoots:
need to see common English Law {Latin section} caveat.
From the tone of entry: It does appear to be of legal significance to the pair and part of legal world {?Solicitor in the house?}, he shall or may be it is she,whom should show due deference to their differences: depends, if written by Quaker or by C of E. trained[brainwashed] Lawyer. First inkling of [Pre] Post marrital agreements, if the said paper doth survive.
Stolzi • Link
I wonder if My Lord and My Lady are a bit sorry now about having named one of their sons "Oliver" !
Mary • Link
Sidney, Oliver and John.
These lads are all quite young. Sidney, Sandwich's second son, was born in 1650 and Oliver and John (twins) were born in 1655.
A. De Araujo • Link
"Oliver"
Good observation Stolzi,lots of young Adolphs in Germany in the 50s
Sjoerd • Link
Imagine the daughter-in-law-to-be of young Sidney the one to introduce inoculation against smallpox to Britain ! (Thanx Vince)
http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…
JWB • Link
Oliver
I doubt Jemima ever regretted giving him the name. Her family Puritan and Parliamentarian. Sidney, named I assume for "the worthiest of knights" was once upbraided by QEI for being too ardent a Protestant, indeed he died of a wound fighting in its cause.
JWB • Link
Sidney above
Sorry for my carelessness. Insert "who" after "the worthiest of knights"
vicente • Link
Small pox the WMD of the day?
vicente • Link
"...Then my father .I ..to Mr. Rawlinson's, where afterwards comes my uncle Thomas and his two sons , and then my uncle Wight by appointment of us all, and there we read the will and told them how things are, and what our thoughts are of kindness to my uncle Thomas if he do carry himself peaceable, but otherwise if he persist to keep his caveat up against us. So he promised to withdraw it, and seemed to be very well contented with things as they are. After a while drinking, we paid all and parted…”
Like gentlemen,they settled their differences, defering to Sam. I guess Realising that “The Lawyers” would get everything, there being so many that doth think they are entitled to Unc’s Money and land.
‘Fortis fortuna adiuvat’: Terence, Phormio, 203 Fortune smiles on the brave? or should it be on the smart one’s, Celebris
Louis • Link
Tomalin's bio begins, dramatically, with the Sam-Elizabeth argument during the course of which he tears in two the letter(s) she wrote laying out the grounds for her complaints, which made him all the angrier as they were just. This is a memorial reconstruction, as the scholars say; can someone with a copy to hand help out?
Mary • Link
Sam and Elizabeth's argument.
To pursue this reference at this point would constitute a HUGE spoiler; we'll get to the relevant diary entry eventually.
Australian Susan • Link
I agree with Mary! SShh!
If we want to speculate on Sam and Elizabeth pre-Diary, try Dale Spender's spoof [but well-researched for historical detail] 'diary' of Elizabeth. It makes as much sense as any!
A. De Araujo • Link
"WMD of the day"
Indeed, and smallpox was used against the North American Indians as such when the english were fighting the french; the English gave them infected blankets
Australian Susan • Link
"WMD"
White Australians were less subtle. Aborigines were given flour laced with strycnine in some parts of Queensland in the 19th century.
A. Hamilton • Link
"Fortis fortuna adiuvat": Terence, Phormio, 203 Fortune smiles on the brave? or should it be on the smart one's, Celebris
That’s the standard translation, but the word fortis also suggest the strong or the bold — “fortune favors him who seizes the chance” with a stress on opportunism rather than moral strength??
Just a thought.
A. Hamilton • Link
"Our Sidney and our perfect man"
In Memory of Maj. Robert Gregory
W.B. Yeats
Dying of wounds in the church at Zutphen, Sidney passed offered water to the next wounded man, saying "Thy need is the greater," or so legend tell us.
During the battle of Arnhem in 1944, many British paratroopers seriously enough wounded to be taken out of the line were cared for in the Oosterbeek house of Kate ter Horst. Kate had spent the summer canning fruit to feed her children during the expected "hunger winter" of 1944-45. As the battle went on, the food supplies of the airborne were consumed. Gradually all the preserved food was brought up from the ter Horst cellar and offered to the wounded soldiers. On the day the last bottle of apple juice came up from the celler, it was passed around some 20 badly wounded soldiers, and came back half full. (Source, ter Horst family.)
vicente • Link
wmd : more on the dastardly way of removing ones neighbours:
An early BW attack took place in the Black Sea port of Kaffa (now Feodossia, Ukraine) in 1346. Rats and their fleas carried the disease to attacking Tatar soldiers. In spite, the Tatars catapulted the bodies of victims at the defending Genoese who contracted plague and left Kaffa. The same rats afflicting the Tatars likely brought disease to the Genoese.[5]
http://www.toxicmold.org/document…
Wim van der Meij • Link
"Our" Sidney Montegu is not the same person that was wounded at Zutphen. The latter (1554-1580) lived a century earlier and was the son of Sir Henry Sidney, Lord Deputy of Ireland.
A. Hamilton • Link
"Our Sidney"
Wim, yes; thanks for the clarification. Didn't mean to confuse Sidney Montague w. Sir Philip Sidney, to whom Yeats and the Zutphen story refer; thought it would be clear, but clearly it wasn't.
Robert Gertz • Link
All we know of the great pre-diary spat is that Sam hates to even think about it, let alone mention it in the diary. We know he avoids the inlaws like the plague which may suggest they got involved, though that may simply be Elizabeth's desire. We know he and Beth are relatively happy now, though she grumbles at his neglect. I'm inclined to think it happened very early in the marriage, well before his operation, and that Elizabeth while not unhappy to have challenged him is not all that proud of her behavior...she seems no more anxious than he to bring it up.
dirk • Link
Sam & Elisabeth
Don't forget that Sam married Elisabeth when she was only 14 years old - scarcely a puber still - and he himself merely 21 years old. Many things can happen at that "tumultuous" age, which you would rather forget when you grow older.
vicente • Link
Yep, he did tie the Gordeon[ian] Knot, but kept it secret from His Coz 'Monte', and her parents were not in a position to say or refute the situation because of their circumstances
Second Reading
Sasha Clarkson • Link
Is Sam treating Pall "like trash"?
As the scion of a, hitherto, landless branch of a yeoman family, Papa (John) Pepys has been clinging precariously to middle class status, working at a trade. He has invested in the education of the two sons who seemed capable of benefiting from it. But although Sam has done well, the family cannot afford to be complacent. At the time Pall was taken into Sam's household, Papa was of very little net worth. There was not enough money to give Pall much of a dowry, so for her to have a prospect of marriage, she would have to learn to manage a household and not necessarily to depend upon servants, and also be pleasant enough for someone to want to have her. These were the harsh realities of the time: they were much worse for other young women.
With Sandwich's patronage, Sam has started to do well in the world, but his position is precarious. He took Pall into his household as a servant to help with her training to be fit for the world, not pamper her. Sam owed her a helping hand, but not a life of luxury. The only mistress of the household could ever be Elizabeth. Now Papa has inherited Brampton, Sam is effectively saying: "take her back pa - I've done what I can for her, which isn't much because she won't learn her place - she'd be better off with you now."
In fact, Pall eventually found a husband at Brampton via the Sandwich connection, and her younger son, John, became Pepys' heir.
Bill • Link
Sasha, good analysis. (The 3rd time around, these annotations need "like" and "dislike" buttons!)
Louise Hudson • Link
Pepys writes, "To the Privy Seal in the morning, then to the Wardrobe to dinner, where I met my wife, and found my young Lord very ill. So my Lady intends to send her other three sons, Sidney, Oliver, and John, to my house, for fear of the small-pox."
Good grief. If Pepys had a clue as to how virulent small pox was, that's the last thing he would have done with the boys. If his "young Lord" had been exposed to small pox, the boys would have been exposed, and Pepys' whole household would be exposed, including himself. And if they'd been exposed they most likely would come down with it. It must have been a devastating time for everyone.
Gerald Berg • Link
Smallpox has killed more people than any other disease. No other can compare. Extinct --outside the laboratory -- due to vaccination. I say this only to remind how ignorant and ahistorical the anti-vaccination movement of today is and how important it is to insist that this is so.
Terry Foreman • Link
"I took some old papers of difference between me and my wife and took them away."
L&M: The papers have not survived, and nothing is known of any such 'difference' except the fact that Pepys and his wife separated temporarily some time during the early years of their marriage, she going to live with 'friends' (?relatives) at Charing Cross: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…