Thursday 7 November 1661

This morning came one Mr. Hill (sent by Mr. Hunt, the Instrument maker), to teach me to play on the Theorbo, but I do not like his play nor singing, and so I found a way to put him off. So to the office. And then to dinner, and got Mr. Pett the Commissioner to dinner with me, he and I alone, my wife not being well, and so after dinner parted. And I to Tom Trice, who in short shewed me a writt he had ready for my father, and I promised to answer it. So I went to Dr. Williams (who is now pretty well got up after his sickness), and after that to Mr. Moore to advise, and so returned home late on foot, with my mind cleared, though not satisfied. I met with letters at home from my Lord from Lisbone, which speak of his being well; and he tells me he had seen at the court there the day before he wrote this letter, the Juego de Toro.¹ So fitted myself for bed. Coming home I called at my uncle Fenner’s, who tells that Peg Kite now hath declared she will have the beggarly rogue the weaver, and so we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her.

A bull fight. See May 24th, 1662.—B:

Friday 8 November 1661Wednesday 6 November 1661

Also on this day

Temperature: 8°C / 46°F

(Average for November 1661)

In Earls Colne, Essex

Burial register 1616 to 1679

(About this data)

Annotations

N upper_left_hand_corner on Mon 8 Nov 2004, 05:08am. Flag this

Juego de Toro sounds Spanish, not Portuguese …

Am I correct in recollecting that in Portuguese bullfights the bull is not killed?
N Pedro. on Mon 8 Nov 2004, 08:16am. Flag this

Juego de Toro

Spanish for bullfight? Tourada in Portuguese. For a description of the present day difference between Spanish and Portuguese bullfights see…
http://www.travelnet.co.il/PORTUGAL/09-Bullfight.htm
N A. De Araujo on Mon 8 Nov 2004, 10:53am. Flag this

“Juego de toros”
Nowadays “corrida de toros”in spanish of course; at the time Portugal had recovered her independence from Spain less than half century thence the costly alliance with England.
N Peter on Mon 8 Nov 2004, 04:36pm. Flag this

Juego de toros? Juego de otros (if you ask a bull!)
N Nix on Mon 8 Nov 2004, 09:51pm. Flag this

“sounds Spanish, not Portuguese” —

Yes, it does, but of course we don’t know how far they have diverged over the past 340 years. It is also correct that in Portuguese bullfighting the bull is not killed. The bullfighter is called a “cavaleiro” — i.e., horseman (caballero in Spanish, anglicized to cavalier) — not a torero (literally bullfighter) or matador (literally killer). He participates on horseback, thrusting short-bladed lances into the bull’s back.

http://mundo-taurino.org/horses.html

In modern Spanish, “juego” translates to English as “game” — “corrida” means literally “running”. BullFIGHT is an Anglicism. As I understand it, the Spanish/Portugues/Latin American view is that it is primarily a spectacle demonstrating skill and courage, rather than a contest or competition. (Anticipating objections, it’s obvious that many in the English-speaking world would disagree with this characterization.)
N Pedro. on Mon 8 Nov 2004, 10:27pm. Flag this

“letters at home from my Lord from Lisbone.”

Montagu would refer to the bullfight as “the Juego de Toro” because he can speak some Spanish and not Portuguese. Charles and his brother James also spoke Spanish.Charlie would try to converse with his future wife in Spanish.
N David A. Smith on Mon 8 Nov 2004, 10:58pm. Flag this

“shewed me a writt he had ready for my father, I promised to answer”
Quite a bit of civility being shown here on both sides of this impenetrable financial dispute. I wonder if this is because each is an agent for someone else (Sam for his dad’s estate, Trice for his dad’s widow), because neither is really sure of the facts, because they’re social acquaintanances/ perhaps friends, or some mixture of all?
N dirk on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 01:52am. Flag this

“in Portuguese bullfighting the bull is not killed”

re - Nix

I Think this should be “not killed in the ring”. Because bulls that have participated in a bullfight and survived, have become a danger to men. They have learned that they can successfully fight a human being, and how to do it. In Spain such bulls are killed behind the scene immediately after the fight. I suspect the same happens in Portugal.
N vicente on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 03:17am. Flag this

Not at the end, but before, getting to the sight of bed “… So fitted myself for bed …” such a nice turn of words coming from one that has seen many a gent, that has been fitted for the the streets. Ah! then he remembers that dreaded lass should take a hike with that dastardly beggarly rogue the weaver.
N Andrew Hamilton on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 04:27am. Flag this

Peg Kite now hath declared she will have the beggarly rogue the weaver, and so we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her.

Anyone know the story here?

Anent Portuguese bullfights. In Setubal I have seen the boldest lads of the town wrestle the bull (weakened by the Portuguese version of Picadores — elegant horsemen with lances) to the ground. The bull was not killed. There was no matador. It was a rather civic event.
N dirk on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 05:40am. Flag this

bullfights

In the 17th c bullfights, in Spain as well as in Portugal, were still a game for the well to do - to prove their courage and agility - where the rules weren’t really fixed and where there was room for improvisation. (A century later Goya will make a series of etchings about the subject, showing how it was done.) It was not yet the well regulated mass event of today.
N Nix on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 03:04pm. Flag this

The killing of the bulls —

True, I imagine, that the bulls are killed after the fight. They are raised for beef, after all.
N Nix on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 04:40pm. Flag this

The last word on the “Juego de Toro” —

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4044&n=3
N Pedro. on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 06:03pm. Flag this

Last word, plus one.

Zapatero has not noticed that somewhere in Spain, (Ribatejo in Portugal), some humans are actually are being used to selectively breed these horrible bulls for courage and strength, instead of for beef!
N vicente on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 07:54pm. Flag this

Man and ‘is pleasures : there be the Bedlam for some, then there be Cockfighting, then there be Bull baiting with that famous dog ‘John Bull’ then there be Bare [bear] baiting either at hide park or in the Baiting ring [please bring ye own [bait] bread and ‘it’ ] of course then there be hounds for a little exercise of chasing Rudyard. Oh ! wot fun. [note the breeds of dogs that be named after the games played]
for a load of bull try the bear baiting arenas in London town at this date.
“…The Puritans endeavoured to put an end to animal-baiting, although Macaulay sarcastically suggested that this was not because it gave pain to the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators. …”

http://54.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BE/BEAR_BAITING_and_BULL_BAITING.htm

ban?[USA] Baiting. ‘…All but ten states have banned the use of bait to lure bears, because it is considered unfair by hunters and non-hunters alike. Unfortunately, the practice remains legal in Maine. Bear baiters litter…”
http://www.hsus.org/ace/19970
In 1656 the local court ordered that Thame
N language hat on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 08:46pm. Flagged

“of course we don
N language hat on Tue 9 Nov 2004, 08:56pm. Flag this

“we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her”

This is a regional expression meaning ‘to have nothing to do with her.’ OED citations (“make” def. 57):

1564 in F. J. Furnivall Child-marriages Diocese Chester 123, I will neither make nor medle with her. 1661 S. PEPYS Diary 7 Nov. II. 209 Pegg Kite hath now declared that she will have the beggarly rogue, the Weaver; and so we are resolved neither to meddle nor make with her. 1662 LIVINGSTONE in W. K. Tweedie Select Biogr. I. 208 He thinks he will only preach against Poprie, and not make with other controversies. 1756 W. TOLDERVY Hist. Two Orphans I. 146 And so, Sir, pray don’t meddle nor make with the maids. 1834 W. S. LANDOR Citation & Exam. Shakespere in Wks. (1853) II. 298/1 The business is a ticklish one: I like not overmuch to meddle and make therein. 1849 C. BRONT
N dirk on Wed 10 Nov 2004, 02:57am. Flag this

Bullfighting

The etchings by Goya I referred to above:

Goya’s “Tauromaquia”:
http://www.toroszgz.org/Exposicion/goya/la_tauromaquia_de_francisco_de_g.htm
or (better pics, but in Spanish):
http://www.toroszgz.org/Exposicion/goya/goyaytorri.htm

This one very similar to bull baiting…
http://www.toroszgz.org/Exposicion/goya/images/g233.gif
N IronRoads on Wed 10 Nov 2004, 11:11pm. Flag this

Regarding vicente’s comment on USA state laws banning bear baiting:
I believe this is in reference, not to the game of tormenting bears, but to the practice of hunting them with the aid of enticing baits. A common bait is bacon grease (translation: back rasher drippings) soaked into a rotting, old log.
Not terribly sporting, really, but the pelts are wonderful.
N vicente on Thu 11 Nov 2004, 03:21am. Flagged

Bait : USA:”… Each fall, trophy hunters
N Jenny Doughty on Fri 12 Nov 2004, 05:48pm. Flag this

IronRoads - that’s correct. We’ve just had a referendum here in Maine, where a proposal to ban bear baiting in the way you describe was put to the vote. It didn’t pass, so it can still be done. Here, it does mean laying bait to tempt the bears to come and eat in a particular place.
N Todd Bernhardt on Fri 19 Nov 2004, 01:48am. Flag this

Bait and switch (on the Internet)

On the subject of bear-baiting, and hunting in the age of the Internet, comes this report from the front:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/17/virtual_hunting/

Just the other day I shot an elephant in my pajamas. What he was doing in my … aw, forget it.
N Pedro on Sat 19 Mar 2005, 09:53pm. Flagged

Sandwich