Sunday 12 February 1659/60

Annotations

• N Eric Walla on Wed 12 Feb 2003, 11:15pm

  Dang! But he LIKED that dog!

  I could have told you that was going to happen (and to most of you I’m sure it wouldn’t have been much of a spoiler).

  Such a fine day—is this as much a comment on the atmosphere as the weather? It is rather enlightening to see Sam in pursuit of the latest information, but stymied at every turn. Too bad the taverns were all closed.

  (oh, and I promised myself I wouldn’t be the first poster this time, but that incident with the dog couldn’t be passed up)

• N Keith Wright on Wed 12 Feb 2003, 11:35pm

  Only because you beat me to it, Eric. The “pretty little” critter first appeared just on Wednesday the 8th, so the realities of keeping a house-dog have been borne in swiftly on Sam. Pet rage, 17th-century style.

• N Wayne Steele on Wed 12 Feb 2003, 11:53pm

  What Letter?
  “…where one told me that he had seen the letter printed.”
  Does anyone know what this is referring to?

• N Maura Labingi on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 12:14am

  Presumably Monk’s letter, from yesterday’s entry.

• N Bil-in-Georgia on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 12:40am

  Shakespeare and Pepys

  I went to a Shakespeare play last night and, as most of us have experienced, had to listen carefully to understand and follow the action. Why is Pepys, writing only 60 years later, so easy to follow? (Even if we need language hat every now and then :) )

  I realize that Pepys wrote more formally for public consumption but is anything else going on here? Has the language become more “modern” by Pepys time or is Pepys creating “modernity”?

• N michael f vincent on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 01:04am

  “I would fling the dog which her brother gave her out of window “
  that used be a common phrase
  throw the cat (dog) out i.e put the animal out side for the night. Those whom are not used to the country idiosyncrasy thought it was meant literally. Any connection?

• N C.Short on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 01:06am

  I’m assuming [dirtied] was not the original word Pepys used to describe the poor mutt’s offense…What does the unabridged say?
  

• N Martin K. Foys on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 01:41am

  Moorfields, which were full of people …

  Moorfields was originally a fen out of which (I think) ran the Walbrook, the little stream between the two hills of London. In early modern London, strips of development ran north up either side of it (at Aldersgate and Bishopsgate). In the 1520’s, the marsh was drained to create a pleasure park, and obviously still remained undeveloped in Sam’s day.

  Directly north of the City and accessible by two or three gates, the fields were, I imagine, an ideal place to congregate.

  I wonder when they were finally developed?

• N steve h on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 01:55am

  Shakespeare’s language versus Pepys

  Good observation, Bil-in-Geogia. The English language changed radically in the first half of the 17th century. In fact, Shakespeare was pretty old-fashioned linguistically compared to his contemporaries after 1605 or so. If you compare a play by Beaumont & Fletcher (late contemporaries) with one by Shakespeare, the linguistic change is obvious; the B & F play needs very little footnoting and sounds far more modern. In fact, the two plays that Shakespeare clearly collaborated with Fletcher on, Henry VIII and The Two Noble Kinsmen, are less archaic, though far duller, than other parts of the Shakespeare canon. Shakespeare will be adapted and simplified when the theatres do open.
  The causes for this change: One was the increase of French/neo-Platonic influence in the court of Charles I, where simplicity in prose and poetry was considered the highest virtue. Another might be the ascendancy of the middle class (both Puritan and Anglican), so that plain common sense style had more appeal to non-courtly readers. A third reason for Pepys’s understandability is its private nature, so he was not tempted to put on a rhetorical pose.

• N Susanna on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 02:07am

  Moorfields

  The area had certainly been developed by the 1740s, as one can tell from this section of a map of London:

  http://www.motco.com/Map/81002/SeriesSearchPlatesFulla.asp?mode=query&title=Moor+Fields&artist=384&other=296&x=11&y=11

  It was near Bethlehem (“Bedlam”) Hospital and Moorgate (presumably the origin of the name “Moorfields”).

• N Keith Wright on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 02:20am

  What the Dog Did:

  In “The Shorter Pepys,” prepared in 1985 by Robert Latham from the complete Latham-Matthews edition, the entry concludes:

  “my wife and I had some high words upon my telling her that I would fling the dog which her brother gave her out at the window if he pissed the house any more.”

  —-sic for “out at” and not “[in] the house” (in case you’re wondering).

  Re Michael F.V.’s intriguing comment on this idiom: what “country”side in which country?

• N Martin K. Foys on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 03:25am

  More on Moorfields

  Susanna, thanks for the link. Braun and Hogenberg’s 1572 map shows the area from Aldergate to Moorgate already developed, but Bishopsgate is still just a thin ribbon. http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/british_isles/london/maps/braun_hogenberg_I_A_b.jpg
  The fields look less like landscaped gardens than in 1742; I imagine in Pepys’ time they may have been more like the later gardens, given that people appeared to want to stroll around them when the weather was nice …

• N michael f vincent on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 03:47am

  idiom N/W Essex uk 1940’s

• N David Quidnunc on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 04:20am

  The Cast

  Source: Latham’s index volume (11) to the Latham & Matthews edition of the diary.

  HONES — Dr. Nathaniel Holmes, Rector of St. Mary Staining, 1643-62 and preacher to the Council of State (d. 1678). (Sounds like he’s a Puritan; Pepys prefers Anglican services.)

  KIRTON, Joshua — bookseller at St. Paul’s. Someone said he employs a crooked apprentice.

  PEPYS, Edward — brother of Jane Pepys Turner, whose home he’s visiting in Salisbury Court, along with Roger Pepys, Sam’s wife and …

  ARMIGER, William — some kind of relative of Pepys’s (Latham doesn’t say how they’re related; the family tree in Tomalin’s biography is no help; all this applies to Glascock, too).

  GLASCOCK, Charles — a relative.

• N Stan on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 08:58am

  Why can he not find any tavern to drink in? I thought that the taverns were open all day every day. I seem to remember him being in a tavern on a previous Sunday.
  ‘…we durst not knock.’ Is it likely that the regulars are drinking behind closed doors or is this a 20th century thing?
  

• N Glyn on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 11:38am

  D. Menchaca’s thoughts about how efficient the mail service in Pepys’ time were interesting, so I did some quick research.

  Their system was more efficient than I had expected. It was around about this time that a dependable system was created which was helped by the fact that Britain is so small: for instance, London and York are less than 200 miles apart. Not only letters were sent by mail but also newspapers, books, political pamphlets, parcels, business documents etc.

  If you had written a letter you sent it to someone care of the 400 or so shops and coffee-houses in London that were licensed to handle them (they were known as “post houses”). Then messengers (“post men”) would collect the local mail and drop it off on their “regular routes”, or it would be sent to the London “sorting offices” for onward delivery. The sorting offices were at Tower Hill, Charing Cross, Chancery Lane, Paternoster Row and Southwark.

  Collections from post houses were every hour in the City and Westminster and up to twice a day in nearby towns.

  In 1680 the cost of postage was reduced to a flat rate of a penny for every pound in weight or for every

• N Glyn on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 11:57am

  Stan: “Why can he not find any tavern to drink in? I thought that the taverns were open all day every day. I seem to remember him being in a tavern on a previous Sunday.”

  The taverns were open on Sundays EXCEPT during the hours of church services. And as you’ll see, this is one of the few times that Samuel isn’t going to an afternoon service. Instead he and his friend are trying to find a place that will serve them drinks surreptitiously.

  I’m sure if he was at home in King Street he would know lots of places to drink in, but in this area “he durst not knock” because he’s a stranger. I’ve had the same problem myself.

  “my wife and I had some high words”
  This is one for Language Hat but I’ll state the obvious and say that it means that they are quarrelling over Elizabeth’s puppy that is “peeing” all over the house. Is this the 2nd quarrel between them in the diary? (Although not a serious one.)

  “High” in the sense of “significant” or “important”: this word is still sometimes used like this in English-English (High Street rather than Main Street; High King; High Court).

• N Christo on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 01:19pm

  ‘High words’ = angry talk. Pocket Oxford Dictionary 6th edn. p.407.

• N tamara on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 01:46pm

  high words
  This is still in use, as in such expressions as “feelings ran high,” i.e., hot and angry.
  Moorfields
  This later became the site (and name) of London’s most important eye hospital—my father stayed there after being blinded in one eye while chopping wood.

• N Rita on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 03:58pm

  “the boys had last night broke Barebone

• N Andrea on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 04:08pm

  “Monk

• N JonTom Kittredge on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 04:23pm

  The Crooked Apprentice
  My first guess, when I read about Mr. Kirton

• N Mary on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 05:21pm

  The Crooked Apprentice

  John Tom is undoubtedly right.

  Compare the children’s rhyme:

  There was a crooked man
  Who walked a crooked mile
  And found a crooked sixpence
  Beside a crooked stile…….

• N helena murphy on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 07:08pm

  I dare say that Mrs Monk is in the hub of it all because she wishes to be there. Like many a strong man in public, Monk comes under the influence of his wife in private. She apparently influenced him in restoring Charles II to the throne.Mrs Pepys seems more aware of the nuances of social class.keeping a little dog was also associated with the leisured classes as is evident in the court painting of the time. The pepys are certainly a couple on the up and up,and after all Mrs Monk does end up as Duchess of Albemarle.

• N language hat on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 07:54pm

  “high words”:
  This is OED’s def. 14:
  14 a Showing pride, self-exaltation, resentment, or the like; haughty, pretentious, arrogant, overbearing; wrathful, angry. Of words, actions, feelings, etc.: hence (now only dial.) of persons. In “high words” now often blended with sense 10 b [Of the voice: Raised, elevated, loud].

  c.1205 Lay. 1503 Heye word he speketh Th

• N michael f vincent on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 08:20pm

  “Hoo”: language hat does luton hoo count? it is a nice place to visit.
  Thanks for the great bumff;

• N paul on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 09:23pm

  I find I’m starting my workday with Pepys: it puts things in perspective for me.

  And I do like the idea of a morning draft: I suspect he’s not talking about fruit juice.

• N j.simmons on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 10:20pm

  No Paul, it’s not orange juice. In Scotland it’s called a stirrup cup, on mounting his horse for the morning rounds/hunt, whatever, the rider was handed his cup of whiskey.

• N Martin K. Foys on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 10:26pm

  Hoo Hoo!

  Hoo as in Sutton Hoo or Luton Hoo derives from the Old English “high,” and means a high place or cliff.

  L.H. — funny you should mention the shift from heo to she — I am teaching a History of the English Language class tonight on that very topic, and just today reviewed it.

  “She” (and “they” and other pronouns begining with “th”) come from Scandinavian loan-words in northern dialects of Old English which never made it into the south, and so were not a part of the West Saxon literary dialect of Old English. But they did survive in the East Midlands dialect, which covered parts of the former Danelaw, but also included Cambridge and London and so went on to be the basis of Modern English.

• N Martin K. Foys on Thu 13 Feb 2003, 10:33pm

  Oh, and …

  Don’t know if “heo/hoo” is still used, but “‘em” is actually a survival of “hem” (initial “h” regualrly lost in unstressed words), the Old English pronoun for “them” which comes from the same southern dialect as “heo.”

• N Glyn on Fri 14 Feb 2003, 12:24pm

  Shakespeare

• N Glyn on Fri 14 Feb 2003, 01:15pm

  What is the maid’s name?

  Phil says it is Jane Beech and Language Hat says it is Jayne Wayneman.

• N Pauline on Fri 14 Feb 2003, 03:04pm

  The maid’s name is Jane Birch
  (This is from the Claire Tomalin book)
  And at some later point Sam hires her brother Wayneman into the household. I assumed that was his last name, but it could be his first name. This is a little muddy. She (or someone easy to confuse with her) does get called Jane Wayneman somewhere.

• N language hat on Fri 14 Feb 2003, 04:17pm

  Sorry about the confusion.
  I was using an old biography of Pepys, which for some reason calls her Jane Wayneman. Actually, Wayneman appears to be the name of her brother. I must get Tomalin’s bio!

• N dichroic on Sat 15 Feb 2003, 12:30am

  Actually the King James Bible was written in a time of great linguistic change and used some words that were a bit on the archaic side even then. One famous example is the description of Eve as “an helpe mete for him” (Adam). The use of the word meet, meaning suitable, died out right after that, leading to the words being read as “helpmate” and thus the formation of a new word.

• N steve h on Sat 15 Feb 2003, 02:54pm

  King James Bible and archaisms

  Certainly the language in the King James Bible stands somewhere between Elizabethan and the early modern English of Pepys and Dryden, You might say that Shakespeare’s works retained whatever comprehensibility they have thanks to the way in which the Bible kept alive expressions and grammatical usages that otherwise had perished from common diction. Another such preserver is the Book of Common Prayer.

• N Grahamt on Mon 17 Feb 2003, 10:41am

  Comparing Shakespeare’s and Pepys’ use of English…
  Isn’t this comparing apples and oranges? Shakespeare was writing in verse, telling stories for the theatre, Pepys was reporting daily happenings. This is like saying that there has been a huge change in English since Victorian times based only on comparing Gilbert & Sullivan’s operettas (which I find unintelligable) with Alistaire Cooke’s diaries!
  Yes, there were changes between Shakespeare and Pepys, but the major changes in English took place before Shakespeare. Compare another poet, John Donne (1572-1631), with Shakespeare:

  First line Canterbury tales for comparison: (C 1400)
  That it was May thus dremed me
  In time of love and jollite
  That al thyng gynneth waxen gay
  For there is neither busk nor hay

  First line Twelfth Night: (1601)
  If music be the food of love, play on;
  Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
  The appetite may sicken, and so die.

  First line of Donne’s The Flea: (1635)
  Mark but this flea, and mark in this,
  How little that which thou deniest me is ;
  It suck’d me first, and now sucks thee,
  And in this flea our two bloods mingled be.

  First Line of Pepys’ Diary: 1660
  Blessed be God, at the end of the last year I was in very good health, without any sense of my old pain, but upon taking of cold. I lived in Axe Yard having my wife, and servant Jane, and no more in family than us three.

  The language, to me, changes little between the two poets, in fact Shakespeare sounds more modern than Donne, but there is a difference between the poetry and the prose of Pepys, based purely on the phrasing.
  Anyway, there is more of modern English from Shakespeare than from Pepys. Take away “And so to bed” and what can you quote from the diaries? Whereas from Shakespeare:
  seven ages of man, all that gitters is not gold, There are more things in heaven and Earth, much ado about nothing, once more into the breach, If you prick us do we not bleed?, The course of true love never did run smooth, forget and forgive, a rose By any other name would smell as sweet, etc, etc, etc…
  Let us not, in enjoying the simple clear prose of Pepys forget that he is writing a language that Shakespeare helped to form. (Descends from soapbox)

• N michael f vincent on Mon 17 Feb 2003, 10:02pm

  Grahamt
  it ain’t ‘alf luverly
  thank you;

• N Allan Russell on Sat 19 Apr 2003, 01:51pm

  One thing that strikes me about this diary is the value of communications. We use email ( and the older ones amongst us can remember snail mail) but I never ever expected that information flowed as freely as it did in SPs time. It is almost as if he were clicking on his inbox every day to see what mail was awaiting him. He did not have to suffer spam though.

• N Pauline on Sat 19 Apr 2003, 08:30pm

  “He did not have to suffer spam though”
  Nice observation, Allan. From time to time Sam meets someone in these peregrinations who he appears to barely have time or sociabilty for—this is his spam. His brother-in-law Balty is his spam.

• N vincent on Sat 19 Apr 2003, 10:29pm

  Allen & Pauline: some of us dodderers even remember trying out semaphore(mouse ‘tis bester)http://www.carolynjewel.com/references/semaphore.shtml
  teach yourself semaphore
  http://www.rnca.org.uk/history/alpha6.htm
  short history of communication at line of sigh(t)
  http://www.cclab.com/billhist.htm

  
  

• N Shirley Weaver Sipler on Thu 17 May 2007, 02:48am

  Thank you, David Quidnunc, for the info above. I was doing a search for our ancestor, Edward Weaver, baptised at St. Mary Staining in 1643 and this website came up. His wife was Mary Skidmore.
  I wish I could find more about Edward or Mary’s families.
  But now, at least I know the rector’s name….and interesting to see the history of the area at that time.