Tuesday 25 August 1663

Up very early and removed the things out of my chamber into the dining room, it being to be new floored this day. So the workmen being come and falling to work there, I to the office, and thence down to Lymehouse to Phin. Pett’s about masts, and so back to the office, where we sat; and being rose, and Mr. Coventry being gone, taking his leave, for that he is to go to the Bath with the Duke to-morrow, I to the ’Change and there spoke with several persons, and lastly with Sir W. Warren, and with him to a Coffee House, and there sat two hours talking of office business and Mr. Wood’s knavery, which I verily believe, and lastly he tells me that he hears that Captain Cocke is like to become a principal officer, either a Controller or a Surveyor, at which I am not sorry so either of the other may be gone, and I think it probable enough that it may be so.

So home at 2 o’clock, and there I found Ashwell gone, and her wages come to 50s., and my wife, by a mistake from me, did give her 20s. more; but I am glad that she is gone and the charge saved.

After dinner among my joyners, and with them till dark night, and this night they made an end of all; and so having paid them 40s. for their six days’ work, I am glad they have ended and are gone, for I am weary and my wife too of this dirt.

My wife growing peevish at night, being weary, and I a little vexed to see that she do not retain things in her memory that belong to the house as she ought and I myself do, I went out in a little seeming discontent to the office, and after being there a while, home to supper and to bed.

To-morrow they say the King and the Duke set out for the Bath.

This noon going to the Exchange, I met a fine fellow with trumpets before him in Leadenhall-street, and upon enquiry I find that he is the clerk of the City Market; and three or four men carried each of them an arrow of a pound weight in their hands. It seems this Lord Mayor begins again an old custome, that upon the three first days of Bartholomew Fayre, the first, there is a match of wrestling, which was done, and the Lord Mayor there and Aldermen in Moorefields yesterday: to-day, shooting: and to-morrow, hunting. And this officer of course is to perform this ceremony of riding through the city, I think to proclaim or challenge any to shoot. It seems that the people of the fayre cry out upon it as a great hindrance to them.

38 Annotations

First Reading

Australian Susan  •  Link

"....and with him to a Coffee House, and there sat two hours talking of office business and Mr. Wood’s knavery,..."
As I enter my husband's numerous Coffee Club receipts into our business accounts, I will be reminded of this: nothing changes.....

"....I went out in a little seeming discontent to the office..." Every household needs its sulking space - bet Elizabeth was glad to see the back of him for a while. She'd had to cope with the no doubt rather embarrassing final parting with Ashwell, whilst trying to clean up after the tradesmen *and* then gets chid by hubby for forgetting where the second best goblets are kept. Or some such. I think Sam narrowly escaped being dinged over the head with a bucket. Looking forward to the RG dialogue......

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

"It seems that the people of the fayre cry out upon it as a great hindrance to them."

Can anyone enlighten me as to why?

TerryF  •  Link

Could "the people of the fayre," who managed stalls, and spectacles of their own ("See the female dwarf!"), find it interfered with business?

See Visit to Bartholomew Fair, 1825.

http://www.uab.edu/english/hone/e…

Aqua  •  Link

Typical complaints by those that have to endure the mess of the hoi polloi and betters, while they do the work"...It seems that the people of the fayre cry out upon it as a great hindrance to them.'

Aqua  •  Link

Sam has waited with baited breath for seven months to see this day.

jean-paul buquet  •  Link

" and so having paid them 40s. for their six days’ work..." 40s?! How much is that today? How much could it possibly amount to for each one of them?

dirk  •  Link

40s

40s would be £2. As discussed a couple of times in the past, it's not easy to find a valid conversion factor, that will allow us to get some idea of the present day equivalent of that sum. A conversion factor of x90 has been used in some previous cases in the diary -- although I personally prefer x75.

See:
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Anyway, it would have been a large sum of money...

Australian Susan  •  Link

The people of the fayre
are there to make money - St Bartholomew's was one of the great fairs, so potentially lots of lucre, but if the Lord Mayor insists on rival free attractions such as the wrestling, shooting and hunting, the crowds will "ooh" and "aahh" at that and not spend money on watching puppet shows, buying gingerbread (fairings)cheap presents or gawking at bearded ladies etc.

Aqua  •  Link

According to Liza Picard There are 60,000 Artisans /freemen [12% of the top 50 % of populus]]. Earnt 38 quid on average a year or approx 15 s/wk or 2s 2d a day.
"...so having paid them 40s. for their six days’ work..." 15s ea . So how many workmen be there. My guess, be at least 3 at 13s and bob extra for the leader. Picard tally's closely with Sams payment. How much in modern terms, hard to say. Sams Pop has to make do with 50 Quid a year and he has to live up the Smiths.
Back in 1940 a farm worker got 9d an hour or 20 quid a year.
This was before the inflation of WWII took hold.
It was very good money for the times, as Adam Smith points out bread , a palias and a roof, be all that is required , all else be luxury..

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Doesn't it bother Sam to have all those lusty young workingmen about the house all day alone with Bess? Or it is that he only fears a near social equal with manners and some education like Pembleton.

Of course I suppose the workmen could all be one-armed, one-legged, one-eyed retired sailor cousins of old one-eyed Cooper. Or maybe Sam keeps good ole Hewer at home to keep a sharp eye.

"Are you almost finished in Mr. Pepys' closet?" Bess asks...For the fifth unnecessary time.

"Aye, ma'am." the rather cool stare of the lusty young floor layer over the fancy Frenchie wife of the rich bloke getting his floor done for God knows what reasons besides strokin' his ego. Another one of those up-and-comers in the new regime...God if we still had ole Cromwell. "We'll be done soon enough." Hard stare running over her.

Fancy bows in the 'air...Fancy togs and all washed-up. Frenchie, or part, Dad says.

Not bad-lookin' all-in-all...But surely leads her bloke about by the nose, that little Mr. Peeps? or whatever. 'Ow's an honest man come by a job like "Clerk o' the Acts", anyhow?

'Course Dad did say 'e was a cousin or friend of the Montagu, now Lord Sandwich, the bloody traitor to the people.

What's she still looking at me for, anyhow? Keeps comin' back to ask 'when will ya be done?' Silly lass, got nothin' else to keep 'er busy? Damned Frenchie with airs...Probably lies in bed readin' all day long. Soaks themselves in milk, they say, the Frenchie women do...To keep the skin so pale and the cheek so...

"I just want to be sure and get the room cleaned before my husband comes home. Though Mr. Pepys is so busy. He's often gone till...Very late." Slight trace of accent...Faint whiff of some fragance...Innocent smile...

Woman like that, just wants to suck the life out of a man...Put 'im on the road to perdition, as the ole minister used to say. Before the bloody Stuart made 'im leave the parish.

Still, lovely thing she is...

"Busy man, your 'usband?."

"Oh, yes. Sam'l practically runs the Naval Office these days. He's there from morning till past midnight many a night. Ummn...Would you and your father like some ale?" Beaming smile...

"Don't bother yourself, miss."

"Oh, no problem at all...Just a moment."

And that walk...No decent walk for a good woman. Rolling 'cross the floor like that...

My god, that's a beautiful...

"Luther, boy! Come and help me lay this piece!"

"Aye, dad."

***

Robert Gertz  •  Link

My gosh, my guess the other day was right. 50 s.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

"Good night, gentlemen. Thank you, Luther." Bess waves as the floor layers depart. Eyes firmly locked on the lusty young Luther.

"Where is what, Sam'l?" she vaguely replies to his repeated question.

Aqua  •  Link

"...and there I found Ashwell gone, and her wages come to 50s., and my wife, by a mistake from me, did give her 20s. more; but I am glad that she is gone and the charge saved..."
after 5 months so 5 months pay at 10 bob a month plus bed and grub and free carriage and a vacation in the country side,not bad Extra 20s be for the agony and music entertainment

Aqua  •  Link

Mary who is quite contrary , earnt 6 quid a year [approx 2/6 per week, not quite 4d a day], twice as much a mayde and a thirde more than the cook, no wonder she felt superior, not wanting to empty the potty and besides, she was a kinder teacher, accomplished musician, so Sam dothe say.
If thee read Sams entries, Sam was so taken with this Chelsy lass, one of Balty recommendation. He does not use the the Familiar name of Mary, it always be Ashwell, a habit that was so common amongst the Equals with a few bob in a purse, not to use a Christian name, given by ones parents,[still remember sirnames or nicknames like 'rubber nose' but not the moniker without title].
So what went wrong?

JWB  •  Link

"...the King and the Duke set out for the Bath"

Anyone else reading this wonder where's Huck?

JWB  •  Link

Virginia labor
"In 1650 there were only about 300 slaves in Va., less than 2% of the population...As economic conditions improved in England, lessoning the pressure to immigrate...slaves began to overtake indentured servants...At the end of the 17th C. , and indentured servant cost about 15 pounds to purchase four years of his labor; a slave cost 25 to 30 pounds...for life." JSSteele, "An Empire of Wealth"

Harvey  •  Link

"As discussed a couple of times in the past, it’s not easy to find a valid conversion factor .... A conversion factor of x90 has been used in some previous cases in the diary — although I personally prefer x75."

I've found that x500 gives a more meaningful comparison. It's also easier, just x1000 then halve it.
At x500, £2 for six days comes to £1000 in todays money, and even if SP means 'six man-days' rather than six days each for several joiners), that's only £166 / day, £16 / hour if they worked 10 hours. That is closer to current rates than the £2.88 / hour produced by a x90 conversion factor.

Harvey

Aqua  •  Link

the muliplication factor be not in the government stats.
4d a day vs in California a Companion gets 160 dollars [100l] for helping those of us with Dementia
that multiplier be 8.000
a Carp gets min 24$/hr x 8 aprox 200 or 120 quid vs 10s [0.5]= 240 multiple
as it be said, what ever the market can bear.

bobby tigani  •  Link

can some tell me how much $60,000 in 1600's pounds is worth today assuming a 5% return annually.

thank you.

bobby tigani  •  Link

can some tell me how much $60,000 in 1600's pounds is worth today assuming a 5% return annually.

thank you.

cgs  •  Link

Wot be 60,000 quid from 1663 be worth to day?
gold coin for gold coin, a sovereign [gold] was fetchin' over 2 Pounds then now a sovereign gold would go for 400 quid plus , on the other hand a 3 story house off the Strand would go for 3-400 pounds, now count the stars in the Heavens.
A Baronet then would expect a yearly income of 800 pounds now he should be a multi millionaire, but a maid could expect 2 quid a year with all the bread and beer she could eat and drink, now a live-in expects that per hour.

A loaf [10 ounce] of bread went for a penny, now a loaf goes for 500 times that amount. There be cheese 1d a pound and silk stockings went for 15s.[180 pennies] then now only 10 to 20 times more.

50 quid would buy thee a carriage, another 50 would get thee two nags, so you could have a hackney service, so thee with 60,000 Libre, could have 600 carriages with horsepower, Today a London horseless carriage costs 30,000 pounds, today thee need L18,000,000. to have the same number of vehicles carrying fare paying clients, or gents then collecting a bob at a time, now it be 10 to 20 Pounds from the Tower to the H of C.

Answer be . nobody really knows.

Second Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"he hears that Captain Cocke is like to become a principal officer, either a Controller or a Surveyor, at which I am not sorry so either of the other"

I.e. Mennes or Batten. Cocke never joined the Board. It was held to be undesirable to appoint merchants. (Per L&M footnote)

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"It seems this Lord Mayor begins again an old custome, that upon the three first days of Bartholomew Fayre, the first, there is a match of wrestling, which was done, and the Lord Mayor there and Aldermen in Moorefields yesterday: to-day, shooting: and to-morrow, hunting. And this officer of course is to perform this ceremony of riding through the city, I think to proclaim or challenge any to shoot. It seems that the people of the fayre cry out upon it as a great hindrance to them."

L&M note the city had allowed these customs to lapse during the Interregnum. The men of the fair quarreled with the Mayor over the dues payable for their stalls, and also objected to the city's view that the fair should open with the mayoral proclamation late on the 23rd rather than at midnight on the 22nd, and that the fair should last for three days instead of fourteen. See H. Morley, Mem. Bartholomew Fair.
-------
On wonders about the skills of wrestling, shooting and hunting: an odd triathlon.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

FROM http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1… The 1663 trips to Tunbridge and to Bath were trips made in an attempt to cure Queen Catherine of Braganza's infertility. It was believed that by taking the waters under a strict routine as her doctors advised, she might conceive. The original thought was that she go to Tunbridge and from there to the Waters of Bourbon, but since Bourbon was a longer and more expensive trip, one of the Royal physicians, Sir Alexander Fraser, "came to the rescue, and declared that he had analysed the Bourbon springs, when in attendance there with the Queen-mother, and found they exactly resembled those of Bath." (Davidson, p. 196). While in Bath, Charles II and Queen Catherine were the guests of Dr. Pierce, who had a mansion known as Abbey House. Grammont says that Catherine went to Bladud's spring in Bath. Bath, Tunbridge, and Epsom were major tourist centers, and the Queen could expect a good deal of entertainment in addition to soaking and doctors' consultations. The waters of Bath are the only naturally hot springs in the UK - known from Roman times. The water tastes fine if drunk when just drawn and hot, but lukewarm it's disgusting. In the 17th and 18th centuries, you bathed in the water every day for a cure, and also drank it every day. The spa waters at Epsom, Tunbridge, Cheltenham, Buxton, Llandindrod are all cold.

Interesting Charles II didn't find it essential to be with Catherine at Bath during these treatments. I wonder what was going on in London that prevented him from doing his duty?

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

My list of Lord Mayors of London says:
1663 Sir Anthony Bateman
Did they served from March to March? Or January to January? Either way, it seems like a safe name in this context.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

The term of the Lord Mayor

The Lord Mayor is elected at Common Hall, comprising liverymen belonging to all of the City's livery companies. Common Hall is summoned by the sitting Lord Mayor; it meets at Guildhall on Michaelmas Day (29 September) or on the closest weekday. Voting is by show of hands; if, however, any liveryman so demands, balloting is held a fortnight later....
The Lord Mayor is then sworn in November, on the day before the Lord Mayor's Show. The ceremony is known as the "Silent Ceremony" because, aside from a short declaration by the incoming Lord Mayor, no speeches are made. At Guildhall, the outgoing Lord Mayor transfers the mayoral insignia — the seal, the purse, the sword and the mace — to the incoming Lord Mayor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lor…

mountebank  •  Link

It's always interesting to read discussion of the multiplier for money then compared to money now. I use x100 for modest sums/purchases but keep in mind that it's not a fixed factor. To put it another way, as the amount of money increases, in Pepys time its buying power increases at a significantly greater rate compared to now.

According to my x100 factor, £1000 then would supposedly be equivalent to £100000 now but it's clear that £1000 then could buy a very great deal indeed.

It's also interesting to see what is "expensive" compared to now. Manufactured goods unsurprisingly were very expensive suggesting certain types of skilled craftsmen (craftspersons) would have been able to make a particularly good living. Unskilled labour is very cheap. This means that as soon is someone's earnings were becoming decent, having servants was affordable.

RSGII  •  Link

I again draw your attention to the website measuringworth.com for a sophisticated discussion of this issue and calculators for making various comparisons. Given the enormous changes in income, the types of goods and services purchased and the enormous growth in national wealth, the answers depends on the question. For example, Pepys paid his cook about 5 lb a year. Today a cook is said to earn about 25,000 lb a year, so the multiplier on this simple comparison would be 5000 not 100. Services are of course different than goods. Cheers

mountebank  •  Link

You're kind of restating my point but thanks all the same.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"Interesting Charles II didn't find it essential to be with Catherine at Bath during these treatments. I wonder what was going on in London that prevented him from doing his duty?"

I find the answer to my own question: Board meetings!

https://archive.org/stream/compan…

On 25 August 1663, however, it was necessary to seek for a fourth subscription [TO The Company of Royal Adventurers of England Trading into Africa] which amounted to £29,000, payment of which could be made in eight quarterly sums if desired. For all those who would pay the third and fourth subscriptions promptly, a discount of 10 per cent was offered.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Thanks, Terry, for the timing of the Lord Mayor's tenure. This means, of course, that Ald. Sir John Robinson (Lord Mayor 1662-63, Lieutenant of the Tower 1660-80) was still Mayor.

Sir Anthony Bateman comes next 1663-64.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

Who the Lord Mayor is on any given date

Phil Gyford, a Londoner, is pretty good abut keeping the links for them straight: I'll bet he has their succession during the diary programmed!

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Ahhhh, just found something else Charles II had to attend to before going on his summer holidays at Bath: "a Proclamation for calling in and commanding everybody to apprehend my Lord Bristol." Dated 25 August, 1663. A copy of it is in the British Museum.

I almost feel sorry for George Digby, 2nd Earl of Bristol. See the annotations to http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1… for more details than can be summarized here.

Chris Squire UK  •  Link

Here are the price indices for converting between 1660 and 2014:

Commodity:
real price = RPI/GDP deflator = 120
labour value = average earnings = 2,100
income value = per capita GDP = 5,200
…………..
Income or Wealth
historic standard of living = real price = RPI/GDP deflator = 120
economic status value = income value = per capita GDP = 5,200
economic power value = share of GDP = 29,000
……………
Project
historic opportunity cost = real price = RPI/GDP deflator = 120
labour cost = labour value = average earnings = 2,100
economic cost = share of GDP = 29,000

Taken from https://www.measuringworth.com/uk… which explains which index to use for different purposes. The important thing to grasp and remember is that using ‘real price’ by itself vastly understates the status and power that came with what seem to us quite modest sums of money in the pre-industrial society of 1660.

Example: Ashwell’s final payoff = £2.50. This is accumulated income so:

Measured by historic standard of living = real price = 120 x £2.50 = £300

Measured by economic status value = income value = per capita GDP = 5,200 x £2.50 = £13,000

Measured by economic power value = share of GDP = 29,000 x £2.50 = £73,000

I have rounded the last amount to 2 significant figures as these figures are only estimates.

Another way to understand this is to see that real earnings have multlplied 2100/120 = 17.5 times; and real GDP/head has multiplied 5200/120 = 43 times.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

A Declaration and Proposals of the Lord Proprietor of Carolina, Aug. 25-Sept. 4, 1663

25 AUG., 1663.

His majesty having been graciously pleased, by his charter bearing date the 24th of March, in the 15th year of his reign, out of a pious and good intention for the propagation of the Christian faith amongst the barbarous and ignorant Indians, the enlargement of his empire and dominions, and enriching of his subjects, to grant and confirm to us, Edward, earl of Clarendon, high chancellor of England, George, duke of Albemarle, master of his majesty's horse and captain-general of all his forces, William, Lord Craven, John, Lord Berkeley, Anthony, Lord Ashley, chancellor of his majesty's exchequer, Sir George Carteret, knight and baronet, vice-chamberlain of his majesty's household, William Berkeley, knight, and Sir John Colleton, knight and baronet, and all that territory [between Virginia and Florida]; in pursuance of which grant, and with a clear and good intention to make those parts useful and advantageous to his majesty and his people; we do hereby declare and propose to all his majesty's loving subjects wheresoever abiding or residing, and do hereby engage inviolably to perform and make good those ensuing proposals in such manner as the first undertakers of the first settlement shall reasonable desire.....

There follow eight numbered proposals for the ordering of the colony's civil life, its economy, religion and security.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/17th_…

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